It's Different Because They're *People*!

[neadods]

I joined metafandom because it posts interesting links to fannish happenings around LJ, and hey - if fanthropology is good, than more of the same must be better.

We'll see how long I last now that my first post has led me to Sprat's commentary on Real Person Slash: "I know this is a sensitive area in fandom, and I know there are a lot of people for whom this is, like, A Really Major Deal--not just a personal squick, but an actual ethical issue having to do with the right to privacy of the actors in question. And the thing is, I honestly do not understand why."

Because they're people, that's why!

I commented in the thread, and I tried to keep my tone reasonable, but I am one of those folk with "an actual ethical issue" about this, and it's very simple to explain why - whether the actors in question know it or not, whether they read it or not, whether they care or not, real person fiction demotes a human being to the same level as a fictional character.

There are levels of this, some not all that offensive. For instance, obligatory disclosure, I once wrote a real person fic. I put a fictional character on a Julia Childe cooking show, which necessitated having Julia Childe in the story. But I don't feel that I denigrated her because I showed her doing her doing her job. And I've read plenty of fanfics where the actor gets sucked into the character's world, or vice versa. When the real person is written in a situation dealing with their job, and written in a manner that fits their character as known, then - well, you can argue that a line is crossed, but it's harder to argue that a person has been damaged or insulted.

But when you start talking about private issues - love, sex, family - in a public fiction, then you start treating people not just as moderately fictional, but as dancing meatpuppets. Real person slash - particularly slash about het humans (I get the impression that Sprat is writing about Paul Gross, who is married) depersonalizes the subjects even farther into breathing sex toys. Sex toys that are getting their workout not in the confines of someone's skull, but right out there in public for the amusement of the masses.

How can you not see that as ethically creepy?

There appear to be two arguments in favor of RPS. First, that the actors are attractive and sell their sexuality in their work. But just because they're selling the sizzle, it doesn't mean they're signing away their rights to control the steak. Where is the ethical line between saying "if actors wanted privacy they wouldn't be actors" and "if women don't want to be raped, they shouldn't wear miniskirts"? Because from where I'm standing, I can't see that line at all. RPS may not be as violent or violating as an actual rape, but it springs from the same mindset - that anyone that attracts is responsible for slaking the sexual arousal - regardless of that person's opinion, interest, or even intent. The same can be said for stalking. It's a fine, fine line between just writing about fantasies with someone and making those fantasies real.

And y'know what? Even if you NEVER plan on making said fantasies real, if you publicly post something torrid about an actor and then go see them, what is it going to look like - to the actor, to the authorities, even to the rest of the fandom? Better pray nothing happens to that actor when you're around, because you've made yourself public suspect #1 without ever banging more than your keyboard.

Second, is the argument that "what they don't know won't hurt them." Well, yeah. The odds of someone finding a specific story about themselves are pretty low. BUT - that doesn't mean it won't happen, not with the global, lingering nature of the Internet. Plus, while the odds of a single person finding a single fic might be low, what about the widening pool of people associating with that person? Their spouse, their children, their friends, their parents - is it really safe to assume that none of these people will trip over the story? Equally important, is it safe to assume that because the story is not about them personally that they won't be hurt/shocked/upset/appalled? Do they deserve to be hurt just because you wanted to get your ya-yas off with a person instead of a character, and wanted to do so in a semi-public forum?

Not to mention that just because they don't say anything directly to you doesn't mean that they don't know. If you suspected someone of stalking you, would your first impulse be to talk to them, or to gather up your information and quietly talk to the authorities? Particularly if they might be going somewhere, say, a convention, where you might attend and they were worried about their safety? (I work conventions, I've been in fandom for decades. I am so not joking here. It only takes one stalker scare for a fan club to lose their star or for a previously wonderful guest to stop coming.)

Is it really all worth it just to be able to write a story about a real person? A person you don't know anyway? Trust me, no matter how friendly they are, how many interviews they give, you don't actually know them.

Think they're hot? Think they ought to be with someone of your choosing? For the love of sanity, write about their character and you can safely bang 'em like a gong. Fictional people doing fictional things is a victimless crime. But for heaven's sake, if you're attracted to an actual person then grant them the dignity of treating them like people!

And no, the golden rule doesn't apply if you wish people were writing torrid RPS about you. Get a sex life of your own!

Comments

[estrella30.livejournal.com]

Is it really all worth it just to be able to write a story about a real person? A person you don't know anyway? Trust me, no matter how friendly they are, how many interviews they give, you don't actually know them.

See, I think this is the most important thing here. The only problem is though, I'm not actually agreeing with you *g*

We don't know these people. Interviews and photo shoots and clip shows give us the very, barest, slimmest view of the *person* that's being interviewed available. We're actually only getting what that actor wants us to see, or chooses for us to see, or makes up for us to see.

If I were to write Paul Gross RPS, do I really think I'm writing 100% PG as a person fic? No. I do not. I'm writing fic based on the persona that he's let everyone who has cable TV see, which is, imo, a character of a type as well.

(I'd also think twice before I compare any sort of internet writing as akin to RAPE. Someone who's ever been in that situation might not take too kindly to being compared to an actor getting willing fucked in the back of his trailer.)

[nycdeb.livejournal.com]

so the fact that he has a public persona makes it OK?

[estrella30.livejournal.com]

I think that when you're writing rps or rpf, that you're writing about a public persona (same as popslash, which I'm guessing you don't approve of either), which is not the same as writing actual REAL PERSON FIC.

The only person who can actually write "real person fic" about paul gross, IS paul gross, or maybe his mother or wife. what we're writing is fiction.

[ajinamoto.livejournal.com]

The only person who can actually write "real person fic" about paul gross, IS paul gross, or maybe his mother or wife. what we're writing is fiction.

So if you're writing about the filming of an actual movie, with the real actors, using details you know about the filming - i.e. it was like a camp, we were all in a compound, etc. and you have two actors fucking, that's not really writing about Paul or Callum, because hey, you don't know that they were doing that, it's fiction... but you never know, wink wink nudge nudge.

And if Hannah or Jack ask their father what he was really doing when he was rehearsing, he can say, it's all fiction, kids, don't worry about it, and that's not being disrespectful?

[nycdeb.livejournal.com]

The only person who can actually write "real person fic" about paul gross, IS paul gross, or maybe his mother or wife. what we're writing is fiction.

So it is OK to publish RPS because you are not really writing about the person as a WHOLE but only that small part of them called the public persona that is known by the same name?

Bull.

Not only is that legally and ethically unsound ("splitting hairs" doesn't even begin cover it), it's awfully presumptuous of you to decide where that line between persona and person are for anyone but yourself. But let's say that you can live with that presumption and I'll presume(since I don't know you) that you can.

Other people have public personas- not just actors. Why not write and post a piece about them? Politicians, for instance. If I wrote a piece about - oh, let's say the President of the United States -- engaging in sexual activities with the Vice-President, I assure you that when they haul my ass in front a judge for defamation* - he isn't gonna be interested in whether I captured Dubya and Dick as a whole. If I can't prove a legal defense - say, parody as was used in Hustler vs Falwell -then I'm getting slapped with all sorts of charges and most likely paying damages, as well

But let's continue to live with the presumption as well as legal and financial risk. Live large! Let's make it just some normal everyday people:

Steve has admired Beulah for years though he doesn’t know her. He sees her come out of her building every day. He sees her walk by his shop every morning on her way to work - sometimes she stops in to buy a soda or chips. They have even exchanged pleasantries. He thinks about her all the time, dreams about her at night. Thinks about her as he's having sex with Carol, his girlfriend. He even had his Carol dress up AS Beulah one night – Carol is game for it and they had a good time. Fine. All good. No issues. The more he fantasizes, the more graphic those fantasies get. Still – no problem.

One morning, se sees her with her with a man - a hot, hot, hottie and based on their conversation realizes this is her brother Clyde. Steve, being open minded in sexual matters, finds Clyde JUST as hot as Beulah. He thinks of them together when he masturbates – fine. No issues. He has Carol call him Clyde in bed all while she is dressed as Beulah. Fine. No issues.

He writes up a particularly graphic fantasy where they come into the shop, start having sex and he gets to watch. Fine. He reads it over and over to himself, he can just picture it. Fine. Knock yourself out, Steve.

He decides to share this work in all it's detailed glory with his best friend, who runs the shop next door, or puts it up on a livejournal, or a bulletin board, or a lamppost with scotch tape. NOT OK.

Beulah, who works for Child Protective Services - guards her reputation fiercely as it would be damaging to her and her career if she was connected to anything untowards. Another caseworker (who has an LJ) finds Steve's piece. It is passed around the office and voila! all Beulah does and says is viewed through the knowledge of this piece. Who cares that she didn't write it, or have anything to do with it. It's THERE. People connect her with it. Her reputation is sullied by Steve. But Steve doesn't know the REAL Beulah. He used "fantasy" Beulah. But guess what? No one else knows Steve's fantasy Beulah. All they know is Beulah. Who never did anything to Steve except say hello.

Is it still OK?


* (being a communication that harms the reputation of another so as to lower him in the opinion of the community or to deter third persons from associating or dealing with him; communications that expose another to hatred, ridicule or contempt, or reflect unfavorably upon one's personal morality or integrity are defamatory or which may cause the subject to suffer embarrassment and humiliation, as well as economic damages, such as the loss of a job or the ability to earn a living)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

(I'd also think twice before I compare any sort of internet writing as akin to RAPE. Someone who's ever been in that situation might not take too kindly to being compared to an actor getting willing fucked in the back of his trailer.)

Are you sure I haven't been in that situation, and are you equally sure that the person you are writing about is willing to be shown as willingly fucked by someone they're not married to?

I truely do see real person sex fic as a violation of that person. By your own comment, you admit that they have chosen not to share much of their lives with their viewers - and yet RPS waltzes right over that line and makes public a private fantasy about their private life.

[peggin.livejournal.com]

We don't know these people. Interviews and photo shoots and clip shows give us the very, barest, slimmest view of the *person* that's being interviewed available.

This is exactly the attitude that squicks me out. The fact that this real live human being is NOT a human being as far as the person writing about him is concerned. They aren't "real" people, they are just some "persona," some empty shell that the writer feels entitled to fill in with any personality traits her prurient little heart desires. That's what makes it sick; the fact that, as far as the person writing about them is concerned, these celebrities aren't even human beings.