musings

[neadods]

There's no particular thesis to this post, and I know I'm spamming. But... thoughts in head.

So, I'm surfing the bento sites in my links, and they lead to more bento sites, and eventually one leads to Hillbilly Housewife, and I start clicking links there. Some interesting bread recipes, and some frugality info too. I like the make-your-own-yogurt recipe, although since I'm only buying for one I'll probably just keep buying it.

Now, Hillbilly Housewife is religious; it's a quiet, unobtrusive undercurrent on her site. As I clicked around her and her links, I never felt insulted or urged to convert; she and hers are the good ones who are making statements of their own faith without pulling a Falwell or a Phelps.

One of the links was to a sewing site. Hey, I like sewing, so *click.* It was one of those modesty clothing sites. What struck me, though (aside from the fact that their models were all completely flatchested, which is one way of dealing with the evils of cleavage) were their pictures and descriptions of their most popular "flattering, modest skirt," which they would either sell you in a variety of fabrics or send you sewing instructions for.

It was the basic 8-gore elastic waist skirt.

And I thought "Why?"

Not why were they selling it, but why would anyone need to go to a special Christian website to learn how to make a "modest, flattering" skirt that can be found anywhere? Simplicity sells the same pattern for two bucks. I just bought a skirt like that for $14 - not body-hugging, elastic waist, a fairly modest 4 inches below the knee (which seems to be the popular hemlength right now). Hell, two weeks ago I bought an ankle-length one at the rennfaire, as I did the year before. Same thing - 8 gores, elastic waist. They cost $55, but if you "price" a skirt by purchase divided by how often you wear it, last year's is down to about a nickel an outing now; nothing like a classic black, ankle-length skirt for maximum wardrobe mileage!

The elastic-waist gored A-line is the most basic, classic skirt EVER. It's pretty much been in fashion since the 1800s, except for the "elastic waist" part.

So what made those skirts acceptably modest and Simplicity's/McCalls'/Burda's/Just My Size's/Bullseye's immodest?

And why did the website outright say you could cover the elastic by leaving your blouse untucked? Are belts unChristian? Why? Is pointing out your own waistline immodest? What if it's a self-fabric belt that doesn't draw attention to the waist?

Further down the page they talked about teaching your daughters to sew with a standard apron pattern (again, as if long aprons couldn't be found in most cooking stores, and the patterns from not only all the standard suppliers but free online as well). And again, I don't get it. Not only are neck-to-knees aprons a dime a dozen, but isn't the standard starting point for teaching girls to sew doll clothes and blankets? (And why is it creeping me out so badly that there's a message that girls should start sewing with a symbol of being utilitarian, as opposed to starting to sew in the spirit of generosity - giving something to Dolly instead of making something that basically says "Put me to work, it's what I'm here for." [Do not even try to tell me that women working subserviently is more Christian than generosity. I have read the Bible.])

I grew up in Amish country. I understand the point of religious dictates to wear only certain clothing that is constructed in a certain way. I even understand - although do not agree with - Flylady's dictates to only wear shoes that lace up.

What I don't understand is the distinction being drawn between "modest" clothing and clothing that is exactly the same only without Holy Housekeeping's seal of approval.

I am also left clinging all the tighter to homekeeping, because so many of the frugal and organization sites out there are very conservatively religious. Which is fine, but my philosophy is not that I want to run an organized house as an offering to the Lord; I want to have an organized house so I can spend more time watching Doctor Who.

Comments

[lagilman]

my philosophy is not that I want to run an organized house as an offering to the Lord; I want to have an organized house so I can spend more time watching Doctor Who.

That really should be an icon.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

It's almost verbatim the motto of homekeeping, which was pretty much founded by a fan for fans with organization issues. That's where I heard about the Seven Items project.

[twistedchick]

My sense of things (which may be wrong) is that Vogue, et al, also sell "immodest" patterns, so getting the pattern from the website keeps girls from being "tempted"...

Or something like that. At least, that's the attitude I've seen before.

[lizbee.livejournal.com]

I am always grateful that my parents, although they were/are strict Catholics and very conservative, never bought into the modest clothing/home schooling/KEEP YOUR KIDS AWAY FROM THE WORLD cult. A lot of their friends did, but Mum's only rule for clothes was that I shouldn't even buy clothes that I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing to Mass. And since jeans, shorts and strapless sundresses were acceptable in our parish, I was really only banned from midriff tops and excessive Lyrcra.

Some of their friends' children, however, were forbidden to wear pants (if they were girls), or to wear jewellery, and one girl even marvelled that I was allowed to watch Star Trek (at age 15!) because it was so worldly.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

*shudder* (The Star Trek part, not the lycra part. I think your mom's rule was a pretty sensible one, actually.)

[evil_plotbunny]

re: the standard apron pattern

I've just signed up for a sewing class to refresh my skills in which I will make a "cute, retro apron". Weird synchroncity there.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Hey, they're fast and easy to sew; it's not a bad starter pattern. It just... well, I think I was reacting to what I saw as the undertone more than the explicit project.

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Some of the modesty people believe that the curves of the body should not be accentuated; wearing a skirt with a visible waistline would qualify. I've seen women complaining that they were very tired of the standard jumper dress that many advocated for modest wear.

http://www.sewmodestclothing.com/godetjumper.shtml

[jonquil.livejournal.com]

Here we are. Classic modest jumpers.

Ew.

http://www.sew-modest.com/

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

Some of my muslim friends choose to wear clothes which de-emphasise the waist to straighten the hang lines from torso to hips for exactly this reason, because emphasising a woman's breasts and hips sexualises her for the consumption of viewers while having no benefit for her (or her self-claimed sexuality).

::uses icon for it's many levels of subtle applicability in this discussion::

[neadods.livejournal.com]

The curves part was pretty obvious with the flatchested models, although I hadn't quite grasped that Waists Are Evil. I guess because they mark a difference between breast and hip?

I've also seen people bitching about the jumper dresses, and I don't blame them. They're just about as unusual (at least made baggily to hide the waist) as Amish or nun's clothing, so they mark their wearers *and* often don't flatter. And between thee and me, I don't quite understand the jumper part. Why not just make a *dress* and bail on the need to find blouses that go with?

[skywardprodigal.livejournal.com]

...

I've gone to church in a floor length dress made out out eyelet cotton with nothing underneath but a bra and slip. And a little shirt over that out of the same (black) material.

Whenever a church lady would fuss at me I'd point out I was covered from head to toe and it wasn't anything the Lord hadn't made anyway, let alone seen.

[dora-took.livejournal.com]

I also suspect that if they sell a pattern, then you don't need to look through those horrid catalogs that are so immodest. After all, it might 'give one ideas'

And if you think it's bad about the aprons, I'm about to rock your world. Simplicity is going to put out a line of ready-made vintage aprons to be sold at Hancocks and and some other places. Like it's so hard to make an apron! And these aprons will have tags on them saying.. "Mom use to sew her own .. now we do the sewing for you"

[neadods.livejournal.com]

"Mom use to sew her own .. now we do the sewing for you"

*twitch*

Hey, a few posts down in my verbosity this weekend, you're going to see a post why I dropped out of Who Meets. I'm still interested in actually *meeting* people if they allow guests and such, but I was NOT happy with that rule.

[maypanic.livejournal.com]

Meh. It's a marketing technique, like many another. Don't you care enough about your family to pay more for the name brand, exact same as the store brand but in prettier packaging? Don't you care enough about the spirituality of your family to buy patterns with our Christian seal of approval? Essentially, people are paying more for the service of someone finding/making these patterns and providing only modest options all together than they are for the patterns themselves.

But this person who advocates wearing shoes - lace-up shoes!- at all times, even in the home... ack! I don't even wear shoes at work sitting with my naked feet politely hidden under my desk. I feel comfortable in my certainty that no one has ever talked to me on the phone and thought "Wow, she sounds like she isn't wearing shoes today."

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Oh, I have a serious problem with Flylady in general. Her ideas on organization are interesting enough, but her assumptions - that everyone interested in frugality and organization is a stay-at-home conservative Christian mom *or should be converted to such* gives me the wiggins in the extreme. I find the preaching on her site disquieting at best (which is why I was praising Hillbilly Mom for not doing the same) and her dictates insane in the extreme. I'm sorry, if you're hiding dirty dishes under your car-wax-polished sink, then you DON'T have a clean house, you're just hiding the mess!

The shoes thing is part and parcel of that. She takes one truth - that if you wear shoes with enclosed heels (generally laceups), then your feet will not toughen and crack, and then loads on a whole suitcase full of strawmen and false dichotomies about how only laceup shoes are nice, and you are only going to become an utter slob without them, and people can tell over the phone, etc., etc., etc.

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember Flylady explaining the whole lace-up thing

1) it's so people don't try to say that slippers are shoes
2) lace-up shoes are better for your feet

[neadods.livejournal.com]

She does, but as I say in the comment above, she then takes that to the extreme, heaping on all these assumptions about how people who don't do what she says are slobs, etc. I can't stand Flylady expressly because she takes one or two truths and then coats them with preaching and assumptions and dictates that it must be HER way or you're an irredeemable hell-bound slob.

[cedara]

Sometimes, I start to wonder if the ultra conservatives wouldn't prefer adopting those Muslim dresses for women, where you can only see the face and everything else is covered.

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

those Muslim dresses for women, where you can only see the face and everything else is covered.

Erm, you seem to be thinking of outerwear (a cloak or coat+headscarf combination), not dresses, and outerwear which is only worn by some muslim women and usually only when they're in the company of men to whom they're not either closely related or married.

/probably needless clarification :-)

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

I've actually seen a couple of sites/forums offering modest dress resources for both Muslim and Christian women. It was particularly interesting because I was working at Victoria's Secret at the time, and had been musing about the very conservative women of both faiths who came in.

We got the modest-dress Christians (mostly Pentecostals or something like, with the Gibson buns and little lace caplets, and the occasional Mennonites) during the 5-for-$20 cotton panty sale, cleaning out the high-cut briefs.

And then we got the Muslim women in headscarves, coats, and gloves, who tended to pick out the most wonderfully glam stuff. Which only creeped me out when the occasional one had us hold it at the counter while she went out to the mall to bring in her waiting husband to handle the money.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I don't wonder. I *know.* It's just that the American Taliban has to chip away at the rest of women's rights before they can go that far. Why worry about clothing when contraception is still legal?

[azikale.livejournal.com]

Gosh,those sites are strange. I had a browse through a few of them, and wow... It's a reminder of just how secular my home city/country is in comparison.

my philosophy is not that I want to run an organized house as an offering to the Lord; I want to have an organized house so I can spend more time watching Doctor Who.

Love this!

[neadods.livejournal.com]

It's pretty much the philosophy of homekeeping which was invented by fans for fans.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

I have a couple theories on the eight-gore skirt, with no particular empirical data to back them up.

One is simply that a company like that would be crazy not to offer basics. They're charging more than the Big Three, sure, but if someone is already ordering other patterns from them, they benefit from the "add this on" factor.

The other, which I suspect to be a stronger motivator for a smaller portion of their market, is that most likely some of their customers don't want to support companies that offer trendy ("revealing") patterns in the same catalog, or even have a commitment to patronize only "Christian businesses" where possible.

I think it's a bit silly myself, but if I respect people boycotting Wal-Mart (if it weren't literally the only other business within walking distance of my office, I might have the gumption to resist it myself), I have to respect that.

but isn't the standard starting point for teaching girls to sew doll clothes and blankets?

Honestly? Every single "programmed" (i.e. 4-H, BH&G books, etc.) sewing course for kids I ever saw started with either an apron or a basic elastic-waist skirt. I'd probably start a kid on hand-stitched doll clothes, but once I was teaching them to use a machine, trying to do doll clothes would be the quickest way to put them off sewing forever. Those little suckers are a BITCH.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

trying to do doll clothes would be the quickest way to put them off sewing forever. Those little suckers are a BITCH.

*snicker* True! Still, I learned on doll blankets, which had the virtue of being easy and being quickly accomplished.