Martha meta

[neadods]

There were two bits of meta argument from the con that I keep meaning to pass on, and bugger if I can remember one of them now. However, the other was the first non-racially-based and non-romantically-based argument about why Martha was the first companion to ever get the "just one trip" series of warnings that I found persuasive.

- The first companion after the Time War is Rose, who is sucked into an alternate dimension and almost into hell while the Doctor helplessly watches.

- The second companion, Rose's companion, is Adam, who breaks all the laws of time for personal profit.

- The third companion after the Time War is Jack, who is killed by the enemies from the Time War and brought back "wrong" - from the Doctor's POV, as a bit of a zombie.

- The fourth companion after the Time War is Mickey, who lectures the Doctor for paying all his concern to Rose and giving none to Mickey, and who leaves the Doctor in part because he says he can do better elsewhere.

- Of the two people he asked to be companions who did not come along, Lynda was killed and Donna told him he was too scary.

Which means that by the time he invited Martha, he'd been burned by six traumatizing experiences in a row and was getting gunshy.

This isn't a free pass from the rest of the dodgy racial issues surrounding Martha's (Mickey's, Clyde's) run. But it does show a logical progression from "Rose! I'll ask you twice!" through to "Donna, traveling with me can be problematic. ARE YOU SURE?"

Comments

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

It's very logical and persuasive - but it isn't enough to excuse the rest of his behaviour (or the way Team Cardiff treats the characters of colour (Tosh included)...

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Like I say - there are still plenty of poor racial decisions to lay at the writer's feet, such as the treatment of the minority character in every single relationship of a recurring character... which is always an interracial relationship to boot. When the minority character is always the one running after a disinterested white one (Tosh after Owen; Mickey after Martha; Martha after the Doctor; Martha's father after his mistress) with the exception of the one missing member of a pair (Tom, never seen again), there is a lot to say about race and none of it's flattering.

But I really did find the argument that the Doctor is learning to be wary of his effect on his companions compelling, especially in light of his practically warning Donna out of the TARDIS.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

But I really did find the argument that the Doctor is learning to be wary of his effect on his companions compelling, especially in light of his practically warning Donna out of the TARDIS.

Yes that is compelling...

But all the rest? Ugh !

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

When the minority character is always the one running after a disinterested white one (Tosh after Owen; Mickey after Martha; Martha after the Doctor; Martha's father after his mistress)

Did you typo on this? Mickey after Martha should be Mickey after Rose, correct?

And I do see what you mean and I don't like it. Not at all.

[ionlylurkhere.livejournal.com]

It certainly makes sense as an overall arc, but I think I'd find the Martha-specific part more persuasive if he hadn't gone back to get her from the party ...

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

I'm not excusing RTD and company, but I'm choosing to explain that as Martha's awesomeness triumphing (albeit momentarily) over Ten's fear of getting too close.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

It occurs to me that one of the reasons why so many different segments of Who fandom seem to be dissatisfied with Ten's behavior is because - and I can barely believe I'm even typing this - he's the '90s-era Bill Clinton of Doctors. By which I mean, he's such an amalgam of so many disparate factions that, no matter who you are or what you want from him, you're going to be disappointed.

Back when Clinton was still president - which, in retrospect, was practically a utopian era, for as disillusioned as I was with it at the time - a columnist whose name escapes me made an excellent observation: "When Democrats look at Bill Clinton, they see a Republican. When Republicans look at Bill Clinton, they see Che Guevara."

Similarly, I think there's enough cognitive dissonance in Ten's character to piss off just about any stripe of Whovian. The asexualists and old-school fans (especially the fans of One and Seven) look at Ten and see a character who's been rendered far too human and familiar - this is where snarky phrases such as "destroying the essential mystery of the character" and "Casanova in space" come from. By contrast, for those whose first Doctors were either Nine or Ten, or those whose favorite Doctors growing up were Three, Five or even Eight, the problem to them seems precisely the opposite, because they can't stand how cold, callous and manipulative Ten seems, especially by contrast to the dashing UNIT scientist, the young-faced cricketer or the Byronic romantic.

In many ways, Ten is a fusion of both Five's boyish enthusiasm and Seven's vicious bastardy, filtered through a heavy dose of Four's Holy Fuck Crazy. When that balance works, it's awesome, but when it doesn't, it hits sour notes very easily. In spite of my own discontent with a lot of the behavior the writers have ascribed to Ten, though, he remains one of my favorites, if only because he plays the role the same way that my 10-year-old self would have done.

[fyrdrakken]

In many ways, Ten is a fusion of both Five's boyish enthusiasm and Seven's vicious bastardy, filtered through a heavy dose of Four's Holy Fuck Crazy.

:Sighs happily at description.: Nail on head.

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

By contrast, I think Nine was primarily One's man of mystery and Two's vulnerable (almost cowardly) hobo, as filtered through Four's manic-depressive personality.

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

Good lord! That really does sum Ten up, in his bad moments. But, I still like him in his good moments.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

he remains one of my favorites, if only because he plays the role the same way that my 10-year-old self would have done.

You just KNOW it's the way David's 10-year-old self did too!

I'll comment on specific comments, but I must say here that I've *really* enjoyed the conversation downthread.

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

Lynda? (That's a request for a reminder, not a challenge. I've racked my brains and cannot recall.)

Also in there, Reinette dies waiting for him and Sarah Jane turns him down when he invites her to rejoin him -- could be argued that these are two more instances of his being made aware of his effect on people's lives (and thus learning to make sure people really, really mean it).

[darthfox.livejournal.com]

(Found her. Thanks, Uncle Google. [g])

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

these are two more instances of his being made aware of his effect on people's lives (and thus learning to make sure people really, really mean it).

The blip there is Astrid - after, what, nine or ten companions or would-be companions in a row leaving, dying or getting their lives half-destroyed by him, there's no warnings to her or provisos about it being just one trip.

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

Interestingly (and not happily), the one person on that list who's really a stretch is...Mickey. It's very clear that the main reason he was discontented with the Doctor was that the Doctor treated him really badly, and he didn't leave because of fate, greed, or general unwillingness to travel. So, like Martha's departure, Mickey's is primarily caused by the Doctor's own behavior. Which is...icky.

[fyrdrakken]

The thing about Mickey, though, is that his role on the TARDIS was less as companion in his own right and more as "Rose's pet" -- repeatedly refused invites onto the TARDIS, with his resentment of Rose hauling off and ditching him to go gallivanting through time and space with an alien being made explicitly clear. His decision to come onto the TARDIS after all seemed a bit more like he'd given up on waiting on her and decided to follow her (at least, in context with his established character and motivations), and his complaint to the Doctor about being ignored seemed to come pretty much out of left field. (Unless I suppose one goes with the idea that he'd had a very optimistically innocent view of the Rose/Doctor dynamic, and was disappointed to learn that the three of them didn't shake down into Rose/Mickey + the Doctor as chauffeur and tour leader, but wasn't going to explain how sick of being the third wheel he was in those terms.)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

like Martha's departure, Mickey's is primarily caused by the Doctor's own behavior. Which is...icky.

Completely agreed, and I'm sorry that it wasn't until I was typing this that I realized that Mickey and Martha - who share one defining characteristic - were the two who specifically told the Doctor he didn't treat them right.

Like I said, the revelation about the string of companion problems does not erase the rest of the dodgy racial issues.

[tempestsarekind.livejournal.com]

Hmm. You know, the whole "just one trip" thing had ceased to bother me after "Lazarus" (because of "you were never really just a passenger," where the Doctor admits to the lie he's been telling himself that whole time), and didn't start bothering me again until Martha's exit from the TARDIS in LotTL. *That's* the thing I still can't come up with a reason for on the Doctor's end, his silence when she's leaving. (Actually, I'd managed to work up various attempts during Martha's absence, but then S4 kind of dashed them when she came back.)

I also wish that I could believe Mickey made that much of an impact on the Doctor...

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

Speaking as a guy who's made more than a few missteps with women in real life, there are times when you, as a guy, don't say anything, not because you're not sorry (because all it takes is one look at Ten's face to see how sorry he is in that scene), but rather, because you can't think of anything to say that will make it right. It is, I suppose, a very Guy Response to communication - if I can't say something that will somehow Solve The Problem, what's the point in saying anything at all? We have a hard time wrapping our brains around ... well, whatever it is that would be accomplished otherwise. Empathy? Comfort? Something like that.

Besides, Martha had already done the whole "my family needs me here" speech, before she elaborated with her more personal reasons for leaving, so if Ten had responded to her more personal reasons, how would that not have been trying to talk her out of being with the family who needed her?

[neadods.livejournal.com]

*That's* the thing I still can't come up with a reason for on the Doctor's end, his silence when she's leaving.

That bothers me too. There's a whole thread articulating why he might not have said much, but I really, really wish he could at least have said "You were never second best" when she tells him that's how he made her feel. It wouldn't have changed her mind at this point, but it would have made everyone, including the watchers, feel a little better.

[gem-pinkeh.livejournal.com]

For me, it's always been a case of the Doctor getting attached to people, getting involved with their lives and then seeing how that changed them and, with the people you mentioned above, not always for the better.
>Rose has her heart broken-she is clearly in love with the Doctor (Not going to get into the whole 'Doctor/Rose' relationship, but it is undeniable that she loved him)
>Adam, (who the Doctor wasn't exactly attached to but, I dunno, was allowed to come with anyway-the Doctor could have said no, but didn't) ends up with a ruddy great hole in his head
>Jack. Well, Jack's immortal now. That's not exactly a good thing
>Mickey's accused of being a murderer, as someone else pointed out in the comments
>Lynda ends up dead
>Reinette, again, falls for the Doctor and has her heart broken when he never returns.

I think, with Martha, the Doctor had seen how much her life had ahead of her, what with her career and all that, and was wary of taking her because he realised the destruction it can cause. That's just my pet theory though
x

[box-in-the-box.livejournal.com]

The one exception to this is Sarah Jane, who for all her sorrow over the Doctor's absence, has clearly lived a full life even without him, as he himself points out in "School Reunion," so just as clearly, the solution is for Ten and Sarah Jane to run off together, making mad, passionate love in the TARDIS and ... um, what? Nothing. I said nothing. :)

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

I think, with Martha, the Doctor had seen how much her life had ahead of her, what with her career and all that,

You know, that was my one objection to a medical student coming on board the TARDIS. I've known med students, and none of them would have time to gallivant around time and space in a rackety ole police call box. :) However, having her end up back on Earth in TSoD with only four days having passed in earth-time since she had met the Doctor in S&J was an almost perfect way of handling things. I was pleased, after all. (And of course, Martha was a kick-ass companion from the get-go, long before she entered the TARDIS!)

However, the show destroyed this effort of making sure Martha was back in time for her med school exams, by rushing her through *whatever* and having her a real M.D. by the Sontaran eppies. It don't work like that, UNIT or no UNIT. If the writers had just let us assume that it had been a few years since Ten had last seen Martha so that she had had time for the various intern or residency requirements, I wouldn't feel so bad about things. Of course, the way med school is handled in the UK may be quite different to the way the ways things are done in the US, but it's the later that I am familiar with (dated a med student and was also good friends with another med student).

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

All of this reasoning is quite compelling and very interesting. However, you place on the Doctor a realisation that traveling with him is very dangerous that I am not sure that he is really that aware of. (Let's face it--these last two Doctors get high on adrenaline rush.)

I really thought at the time that I was watching PiC that he was warning Donna away from traveling with him, not so much because it was dangerous, as that he didn't want some sort of lop-sided relationship like he had had with Martha. (Perhaps the awareness that his life is dangerous was in the back of his mind, and if so, that's good on him to realise this and be aware of it and express it to any potential companion), but what I saw in that scene was that he just wanted a friend--in other words, more like a companion from the Classic show. And thank goodness for that! Donna's been like a breath of fresh air to someone who's been watching the show since the early 80s, and has seen everything (except most of One and Two, sad to say--a lack that I intend to make up for as soon as possible).

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Donna is a proper old school companion, yes!