On Producers Playing Favorites - A Highlander Fable

[neadods]

Before I start the main post, an utterly OT link: PoC might be interested in seeing one of the Golding spindles showcased by Lime & Violet. I have a Golding lucet and ballwinder; all his tools are works of art.

Now - there's a lot of discussion, particularly post-CoE (no spoilers in this post) of RTD playing blatant favorites among his characters, particularly for Gwen and Rose. (Rose always returning like the cat that came back, muscling in on both her successors, and Gwen, the untouchable POV character in Torchwood. No matter what else happens, Gwen stays around and stays more or less the same, because she's the one we're supposed to be using as our one and only gateway to the Torchwood world. Note that she is always said to be providing the team's "heart" and "conscience" - when it would be more useful and more flattering to point out that she's also providing the team's only grasp of investigation and police procedure beyond "Bugger off, Torchwood's here.")

There's a lot of evidence to support this point of view, especially in light of what RTD has been saying at SDCC post CoE. (One more acronym, and I might as well be writing something for work!) He may say that all characters are equal, but some are obviously more equal than others.

But at the same time, I have to give him credit, because no matter how he hints and implies, he has not come right out and said "This show is about character X and if you like character Y more, you're stupid and deluded."

And yes, that has happened. Ask a Highlander fan - or at least one who wasn't a fan of The Highlander himself.

(Ob disclaimer: I was not a Highlander fan. Most of what I'm about to relate comes from knowing Richie and Methos fans.)

The producer was very much into Duncan. Duncan was very much his Marty Stu. And if anyone liked the show and didn't like Duncan best of all - well, the producer himself would start the flamewar.

The thing is, you can't predict fannish reactions. We're going to like who we like, and if it's the elf in the background who has no lines and no action (Google "Figwit"), then that's who we're going to like. And in a series show, every single character is going to have their fans, whether they're "meant" to or not.

Which meant that Highlander Duncan had some pretty stiff competition from his own friends.

The first was Methos, the lazy, morally ambiguous but mostly good-ish Immortal. He was supposed to be a background exposition character, but from the moment he appeared, fans gravitated to him. In response to that popularity he was made a regular character instead of a recurring one - but in order to disgust the fandom into turning away from him and returning to the love of Duncan, the producer suddenly gave Methos a terrible dark background as an evil, asskicking villain.

The producer couldn't have made fans flock to Methos faster if he'd stripped Peter Wingfield naked and dipped him in chocolate. Arguably, by making someone smart and strong into a reformed bad boy, the producer pretty much HAD dipped him in chocolate. Or fannip. (Which is like catnip, only it's visual and works on people.)

Oops.

The other character who threatened Duncan's supremacy (for some reason, watcher Joe's fans didn't count) was sidekick Richie. Richie was getting a lot of attention.

But what makes the difference between RTD and the Highlander producer is how he handled this second threat to Duncan's supremacy. The producer not only wrote Richie out, he personally launched into the Richie fans when they talked to him at cons. He encouraged the Duncan fans to harass them off the assorted fan forums. He even let the tie-in authors blow off the Richie fans; one of them went on record saying it was "unimportant" that her book didn't even get Richie's physical description right.

I run 50% like and loathe on RTD; he successfully brought back Who and invented lots of fascinating characters - but overall I find his writing puts emotional manipulation over basic plot logic and his stories are as repetitive as a reused teabag. His con comments and interviews tend to be self-congratulative and shockingly dismissive of fandom, but he openly admits that that's the culture that he, his writers, and his current star came from.

But y'know what? He's never flat-out told a fan of Jack, Tosh, Owen, Ianto, Martha, Donna, Wilf, Jackie, or Mickey that they're wrong for liking those characters. And by blowing off all of Internet fandom en masse, he's not telling Group A that it's open season on Group B.

As smug as he can be - as often as he repeats things that I don't want to hear and don't entirely believe - there have been producers who are WAY nastier to the fans and take far more pleasure in bullying them into "rightful" thinking.

Comments

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

I was never in Highlander or Torchwood fandom, but still had to say: The producer thought that making a tall, dark, handsome supernatural entity into a morally ambiguous antihero with a dark, desperate past would turn viewers off? Be right back, laughing forever.

I'll see your laughter and raise you a...

[taiamu.livejournal.com]

(Spoiler)

Yeah. Methos' deep dark past was that he was actually Death, from the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Which meant that in flashbacks he ran around in armor and blue face paint and very little else. Being very fierce.

So, not only was Methos' past a Tragic, Morally-Ambiguous Past, it was EPIC. .

I say this with all the affection in the world for the character of Methos. ;) I thought the storyline gave him more depth.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

The producer thought that making a tall, dark, handsome supernatural entity into a morally ambiguous antihero with a dark, desperate past would turn viewers off?

I KNOW! But then, Panzer never understood fans. Ever. He pretty much thought of fans as annoying cash cows - it was his merchandising company that hit on the idea of selling videos only in full season sets along with lots of other "free" and unnecessary crap from bathrobes through letter openers. For the low, low price of several hundred dollars.

[fourzoas.livejournal.com]

I've never really had a problem with the way RTD deals with fandom; I get that he's a long-time fan of the show and have always just thought that he writes the show the way he thinks it should be written. I can like/dislike or agree/disagree with what he chooses to do with the 'verse, but I guess I've just thought of it as his vision/version, so ultimately, it's his story to tell. I think the stuff that he gets nastiest about in the fandom is related to what one might see as excesses in fan behavior, particularly the demands that he do X or Y (although I don't know that he's ever had a negative reaction to any demands for more Rose or Gwen--which I would expect to be the case since he clearly uses those characters as his own window into the 'verse). Has there ever been a show runner that the Who fandom has mostly rallied behind?

And Golding spindles are absolutely gorgeous--I will own one someday.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

although I don't know that he's ever had a negative reaction to any demands for more Rose or Gwen

I've been looking in vain for a source for this mid-season 3 interview - I had it for ages as my Outpost Gallifrey sig, because the repeated meme of "the writers never actually lie, they just cunningly disguise the truth!" annoys me - but he did at one point go off on the Rose fans wanting her to return, asking whether they'd somehow missed Doomsday, saying it really annoyed him when people asked that because her story was completely finished, and stressing "she is never, ever coming back".

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Now don't you go bringing logic into this! :D

Has there ever been a show runner that the Who fandom has mostly rallied behind?

Well, RTD and now Moffat. We've rallied behind many a producer - *before* they actually produce anything!

I find RTD a bit smug, but honestly never seen him as particularly ruder to fandom than fandom is to itself... especially when Panzer is the basis of comparison.

[taiamu.livejournal.com]

Huh. I didn't know that happened in the Highlander fandom. But then, I did like Duncan a fair amount(actually, I liked all the characters on Highlander--there wasn't one I hated), so maybe I wasn't in the right circles to catch all that? In any case, I feel terrible for the Methos and Richie fans. :(

Speaking of which, the way Richie went out was one of the worst exits of a character ever. I haven't seen that ep since it originally aired. So, yeah, Richie got majorly shafted in canon.

Come to think of it, much as I dislike some of the things RTD has done, he has a fair way to go before being declared the 'Worst Showrunner Ever' in my book.

You want bad? Talk to a Forever Knight fan sometime. Ask them about Last Knight. Worst ending for a show, ever. :(

[lizbetann]

You want bad? Talk to a Forever Knight fan sometime. Ask them about Last Knight. Worst ending for a show, ever. :(

The scars still pull when I stretch... geeze. I'm still so bitter that I refused to watch Grey's Anatomy just because Parriott's name was on it. (I had to hold my hand up to block the name for the first season or so of Ugly Better.)

[mtgat]

FIGWIT!

*may possibly be one of Figwit's deranged fangirls*

Ahem.

Exactly. I am pissed at Rusty, but in some ways he is Less Bad than some of his peers.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Some importantly major ways, IMO. Even the end of CoE beats the end of Forever Knight.

Not that it's going to stop the fandom from pulling out the superglue and sticking their toys back together.

Figwit is the best illustration EVER of "fans are gonna like what fans are gonna like. And it's not necessarily going to have a damn thing to do with the original artistic vision."

[scott-lynch.livejournal.com]

I have very mixed feelings on RTD; he played a pivotal role in bringing a favorite thing of mine back to life, and for all of the encrusted turds the new series has spat up, it has also brought forth a considerable number of instant classics that already stand toe-to-toe with the older series at its very best.

RTD has a good solid handle on characters and emotion (when he keeps things in perspective). He's mediocre to horrendous at narrative, and ghastly with science. All things considered, I'm glad he's moving on, since the program has quite a few writers with all of his strengths and fewer of his weaknesses.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

it has also brought forth a considerable number of instant classics that already stand toe-to-toe with the older series at its very best.

Yeah. And if I'm going to judge the man on his actions, I'm going to judge him on *all* of his actions.

I won't blame RTD for his grasp of science either, because Who has always been about the skience and handwaving. But I'm ready for the Moffat era because at this point, I'm not sure there's any plot points left that RTD hasn't used at least twice in this universe. Ready for something *new* now!

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Geez! That Highlander producer was an utter d1ck!!

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Beyond arsehole. BEYOND.

He also saw fans as cash cows - came out with expensive catalogs full of overpriced crap, much of which had nothing to do with the show. And if you wanted to buy episodes, you had to buy full season sets with a whole bunch of extra stuff (like bathrobes, no kidding, and hair ties and card holders) that inflated the price into the hundreds of dollars.

[lizbetann]

I was DEEP in Highlander fandom at the time and I didn't know this. (Then again, chances are that it was not discussed on HIGHLA-L -- yes, back on mailing lists and when one mailing list could usefully be considered to be the center of the fandom -- because of the inevitable flamewars.)

I DO remember attending the post-show Creation Con (thus, with cheerful and active participation of TPTB) and the UTTER crogglement on Panzier's face when the audience went WILD over Peter Wingfield. I was like... dude, where have YOU been for the last four seasons? Seriously.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Smap was a Richie fan, and thus ground zero. She remembers those flamewars until she dropped the main list.

the UTTER crogglement on Panzier's face when the audience went WILD over Peter Wingfield.

It must have made parts of his brain melt that the more he wanted the fans to dislike Methos, the more fannip he was pouring over Peter.

[doyle_sb4.livejournal.com]

As a writer I think RTD's strong on character stuff and weak on plot (or that he doesn't care if a plot makes any sense so long as it sets up the emotional moments he wants) - as a showrunner interacting with fans, he's dismissive and often annoying but, yeah, I've seen far worse. The Buffy writers - not Joss Whedon himself, AFAIR, but David Fury, Marti Noxon and the like - managed to offend huge swathes of the fanbase at various times: Spike/Buffy shippers should go back to writing to serial killers in prison, Buffy/Angel shippers were sitting around in their prom dresses obsessing over their high school sweetheart...

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I'm not necessarily defending RTD as wonderful in all his interactions and writing because I don't feel he is wonderful in all things he's done.

But man, oh man, does he look a hell of lot better when compared to some alternatives...

[havocthecat]

Oh, Highlander fandom. How well I remember you, and how much the shit hit the fan at the MediaWest where everyone watched Richie die for real. (Except for that part where five or six different stories were written that very weekend to bring him back. God, I love fannish retconning.)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Ah, MediaWest. What will we do when it finally folds? Even the wars fought in those halls give us a certain solidarity.

Except for that part where five or six different stories were written that very weekend to bring him back

Oh, Ianto's just been granted a long and happy afterlife!

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

If I had a dollar for every time we Methos fans were told by TPTB that 'the show's called HIGHLANDER!'.... Yeah, no kidding. I was also a Forever Knight fan, so those were quite some years in my fandom life.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

If I had a dollar for every time...

Rich! We would be rich!! Sorry, couldn't resist.

Because I'm really, really shallow...

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

...and this pic is so good, I should really use it twice :-P

Re: Because I'm really, really shallow...

[fyrdrakken]

And it's this picture that made me notice a definite resemblance to the young actor playing Merlin on the recent BBC show. (Whose name I cannot remember -- I know there's a Colin, but can't recall if it's Merlin or Arthur.)

[serriadh.livejournal.com]

*grins*

I don't know how into/aware of HP fandon you are, but if you mention 'JKR' and 'Snape' in the same sentence, you can have another example of people being more dismissive of their fans than RTD.

(And she's another one who created a tall dark character, unfortunately played by Alan Sex GOd Rickman in the films, which can't have helped, with a hidden past and hidden swathes of nobility who was misguised, castigated by the heroes and yet turned out to be on theof right after all AND THEN WONDERED WHAT PEOPLE SAW IN HIM)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

My first reaction on seeing the very first movie was "Take me now, Alan Rickman." It's on this journal somewhere.

Yeah, JKR seems to be fueling the wars in her fandom. Of course she's going to see the characters a certain way, she's going to go with the pairings that work best in her head. But in addition to the thing with Snape, there was her poking at the shipwars. (Hell, the fan who wrote Harry, A History also dedicated an entire chapter to basically saying "You losers were wrong, nanny-nanny boo boo.")

I couldn't care if Harry humped the whomping willow, but the way JKR ground it in and let some of the BNFs grind it in further was significantly less than classy.

[luscious-words.livejournal.com]

The producer couldn't have made fans flock to Methos faster if he'd stripped Peter Wingfield naked and dipped him in chocolate. Arguably, by making someone smart and strong into a reformed bad boy, the producer pretty much HAD dipped him in chocolate. Or fannip. (Which is like catnip, only it's visual and works on people.)

WORD. Did someone say PW and chocolate in the same sentence? Pass the fannip please. ;)

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

Indeed :)

[fyrdrakken]

*Adds Highlander to the list of series I need to Netflix at some point.*

Because after all it's worked out so well for me with finally checking out SG-1.

[fyrdrakken]

And after posting the above I belatedly looked at the tab I'd opened for the spindle and sighed lustfully at the bottom left one. Dammit, spinning is something I won't let myself get sucked into, because it would increase my stash (fiber and handspun both) while eating into my potential knitting time.

Thankfully, that design is available on a pillbox from Gaelsong. In case I ever really feel the need to own it on something.

[angeloblueflame.livejournal.com]

No producer anywhere should dismiss the feelings of fans when it comes to series that manage to make it more than a season. We're entitled to like or dislike whatever characters we wish. They wouldn't still be working if we chose to make it so. I think we all get a bit upset when we are just getting to know a character at the moment they get changed too much or perhaps axed. ("Thanks for the tea and coffee, Ianto. Oh...and the saving our asses time and again. So sorry about the ol' hook and sinker.")

Now, to cap this babble:

'The producer couldn't have made fans flock to Methos faster if he'd stripped Peter Wingfield naked and dipped him in chocolate'

True enough taken as a plain statement, but I'm not sure I'll ever be in a clean state of mind again when visiting the Hershey factory. :P

[neadods.livejournal.com]

No producer anywhere should dismiss the feelings of fans when it comes to series that manage to make it more than a season.

Even if it doesn't make it a full season. It simply doesn't pay to mix in with the fanwars. It's petty bullying and only guarantees lost audience.

I'm not sure I'll ever be in a clean state of mind again when visiting the Hershey factory.

But you'll have such a big smile on your face!

Here via delicious...

[yasaman.livejournal.com]

And count me as another relatively new HL fan who is totally baffled by the PTB trying to make Methos unattractive to fans. And that the PTB pulled such asshattery at cons! *boggles* It certainly does make me feel more charitably towards RTD.

I knew there was some question as to whether Methos would be a recurring character or not (didn't they initially plan to kill him off?), but I had no idea the PTB were so clueless about his appeal! I mean really, you don't create a character who's 5000 years old, smart, morally ambiguous, and attractive without expecting fans to flock to him. And all fangirl considerations aside, he's just plain one of the most interesting fictional characters out there.

At any rate, thank you for the window into Highlander fandom history! I've often wondered about how some things went down back when the show was airing and the fandom was at its height.

Re: Here via delicious...

[robling-t.livejournal.com]

I've been going through my old paper Highlander-stuff archives to send them off somewhere for Posterity and remembering how absolutely mad it all was... {sigh} Good times. Partly it was because the internet was new back then and you had to walk uphill both ways to use it, so showrunners were if anything even more clueless about what they'd set loose on the world, but you would think that at some point somebody would wise up as to how to relate to the public without quite so much asshaberdashery getting involved...

In other words, RTD is an unintentional fool

[hohaiyee.livejournal.com]

Credit to him for TRYING I guess. I don't think he INTENDS to tell us that the other characters have no heart or conscience, or that 'we', don't include the people who can't identify with the pretty white chick.

I think it is important to have characters viewers can identify with, or empathize with, or feel things for, though it also works to have a character who is completely alien and fascinating, like Dr.Who. The trouble is, when, your cast aren't all superhumans, they are humans, and you still have a Designated Everyperson, which is not a realistic presentation of The People, who are all diverse.

I never could identify with Gwen, and of course, not Jack, though I've looked at people like them, I find Owen's lust and Tosh's shyness and Ianto's tight-wounded less more easily identifiable. That doesn't mean that Gwen isn't real, this just means that there is no such thing as the everyperson, there is no 'average joe' or 'average jane'.

Throughout CoE, I find myself identifying more with Bridget Spears, than with Lois, I can't see myself poking around on my first day evar, cause hello, JAIL! Plus, that's just plain irresponsible.

I don't think RTD INTENDS to other the people who aren't white, who aren't extroverts, or ironically, who aren't a portrait of the Proper Straight Family (which Owen and Tosh wouldn't be, they are nerds and bisexuals)...he did create Ianto Jones AND Martha Jones after all, eh? Still, that's how it comes off as, to me.

Re: In other words, RTD is an unintentional fool

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I don't think he INTENDS to tell us that the other characters have no heart or conscience, or that 'we', don't include the people who can't identify with the pretty white chick.

I'm sure he doesn't intend it. I'm equally positive he's doing it, repeatedly. I had a discussion with an English writer who insisted that showing Martha and Mickey being consistently put-upon and competent was "enough" to overcome the fact that the main character was equally consistently a dick to them; the idea that the main character was always being a dick to the characters of color simply wasn't sinking in as a problem in and of itself.

So, I will give some points to RTD for creating Mickey, Martha, Tosh, Ianto - especially Mickey, who was allowed to grow from clinging comic relief to badass character. As you say, I don't think he intends to other characters. Based on that conversation (which was not with RTD, but I thought illustrated the mindset).

And I really do give him some grudging points for not outright saying, a la Panzer, that if you don't like *his* favorite character, there's something wrong with you. I don't think that RTD thinks that there's anything "wrong" with the people who are upset at how he treats characters, I honestly think he does not even comprehend a mindset outside his own.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

Thank you for trying to set the record straight. Because most of this original post is absolutely incorrect regarding Highlander.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure where you got your information regarding Highlander, but I have been to the cons, talked to the actors, writers, and directors. I've read interviews and your information is incorrect.

The writers, producers and directors loved Methos. The Horsemen arc wasn't because they wanted fans to turn against Methos. Just the opposite! Peter talks about this at length in Maureen Russel's "The Complete Watchers Guide".

Peter was (is) an amazing actor. In fact, Methos was supposed to be killed in the Kalas arc. But they were all so awed by the character and Peter's portrayal that David A rewrote the script so Methos could live.

As Peter and writers David A, Gillian H and Donna L have stated numerous times, Peter didn't feel like a 5000 year old man could be widdle Adam Pierson. But there was really no way to play that kind of character. So he hinted that there was something underneath - a danger - secrets - and the writers saw this in his acting.

This would spin off ideas and they played off one another. This is how the Horsemen arc came into being. It was because they wanted Methos to be more , they wanted to show who he had been and some of his history. As Peter has said, "it was right!"

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

Part 2

David, Bill Panzer and Peter were (are) friends. Of course, Bill is deceased now. They wanted Peter in the shows more often but Peter had professional conflicts. For instance, he was filming Noah's Arc in England.

But they loved the character and they wanted him to shine.

They weren't the only ones. Adrian Paul (the Highlander himself) was always generous with other actors on the series. When he directed Rev 6:8 he made sure all the Horsemen were given the best scenes and the actors were able to do their best work. It's not an accident that some of the best episodes were directed by Adrian. Another Methos episode where Peter shined was Modern Promethius - also directed by Adrian.

Yes, they would say the show was about the Highlander. That was usually in response to fans who stated they couldn't stand the main character and basically wanted the writers to dump the character and make the shows about the secondary characters. And, quite frankly, I've never understood how anyone could watch a show that they didn't like the main character. I mean, Methos didn't even appear until the middle of season 3.

[dune-drd.livejournal.com]

I laughed. I've always been a Methos fangirl, but being far too young, internet-less (oh, those Dark Ages) and pretty much incompetent of the english language back then, I actually always thought Methos' character was deepened with so much awesome backstory because he was so popular... Oh, how I still miss that smug bastard.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

But you were exactly right. His character was deepened. That was the point of the storyline. I don't know where the idea came from that they wrote it to make fans dislike Methos. I've never heard that before and I've been in the fandom from first run. It doesn't even make sense.

David loved the character. Peter loved the character. Peter says the storyline came out of a wonderful give and take between himself and the writers. He would put something out there in his acting. They would see what he was doing and spin the character into a new direction. He would take that and do something interesting with it. He thought it was wonderful.

And he still talks about how awesome it was to read the script and know that he was going to get to play that...he couldn't even ride a horse and it didn't matter. That was their problem. He was amazed and very pleased.