Riiiiight: My $.02 on the Torchwood in America thing

[neadods]

T3 link: lj user="neadods"> a href="http://neadods.livejournal.com/929522.html">is dubious about the Fox remake

So, the flist is buzzing about RTD and his creative team remaking Torchwood in the US under the aegis not of BBCA, but Fox. (I've already seen it dubbed "Foxwood.")

Let me rephrase this.

The guy who said he was moving on to fresh stories is instead continuing to recap an old project...

... in a completely different country than where the brand was successfully built up...

... a country in which this show only gets big numbers when compared only to the usual viewing numbers of a cable channel that doesn't appear in many markets...

... and he's doing this under the financial support not of that comparatively tiny cable company for which he got those ratings...

... he's doing it under the financial support of a company that got its financial ass handed to it the last time it tried to do an American reboot of the parent property.


And he is apparently going to continue to use the name of (and thus the concept of) a British group founded by a British Queen to forward British interests because of course America cares deeply about this sort of thing and doesn't have any baggage about the British Empire...

...and he's going to hang the show off of an actor that nobody outside of the fandom has heard of because he built his reputation in British theater and TV, not America.


When you look at it like that, it couldn't possibly be dubious news or (if real) remotely doomed to failure.

Comments

[evil_plotbunny]

Oh, there might be a small fraction of people who've heard of the actor because he's the guy Neil Patrick Harris fought in the #biggay battle just last week. ;)

But you forgot the part where he's doing it with a channel that has a history of scheduling quirky shows badly, airing them out of order and canceling them just as they're starting to find an audience.

Sigh.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

he's doing it with a channel that has a history of scheduling quirky shows badly, airing them out of order and canceling them just as they're starting to find an audience.

That too, *especially* with SF. But I'd really think after the ass-whipping they got over Doctor Who, the Movie, all their financial people would start twitching at the very idea of going near the Whoniverse again.

[evil_plotbunny]

On the other hand, if they make nice, there might be a DVD of the movie in the US's future....

[tiggerallyn.livejournal.com]

Vivendi Universal (which has the DVD rights) has no interest.

I was hopeful, around the time they started showing Eccleston's season on the Sci-Fi Channel. But they don't see the value. Doctor Who isn't their property. Yes, they're leaving money on the table, but realistically it's such a piddling amount it doesn't even register. *shrug*

[tiggerallyn.livejournal.com]

You forget Hollywood's capacity for self-delusion. And also Hollywood's capacity to ignore the mistakes of one's predecessors. The people in charge at FOX in 1994 and 1995, when the negotiations were ongoing, weren't there in 1996 when the film was broadcast. It wasn't the financials that doomed Doctor Who (no matter what Philip Segal says), it was the fact that it was an orphaned project and no one at FOX had any vested interest in doing anything more with it than a single one-off movie (again, no matter what Philip Segal says).

Torchwood would be an easier sell to an American network, because it's something familiar. (Hell, I'd ramp up the procedural aspects for an American network — pitch it as NCIS with aliens.) Doctor Who's format is, frankly, a little out there for an American mass audience. (Which is where I think Segal went wrong, by the way; maybe I've mentioned in the past how Segal should have pitched Doctor Who to FOX. The format's freedom is also its Achilles Heel.)

Honestly, I'm indifferent to the BBC's motives here. If they want to try and sell FOX on an American Torchwood series, more power to them. If it goes to series, I'll watch it until FOX pulls the plug. (Summer Glau for the Gwen-type character, maybe?)

But what will really entertain me is what I've been seeing online today — the rampant fear about how (and if!) this will fit into the Doctor Who universe. Really, that's the last thing that anyone should care about at the moment. If it fits, it fits. (And I've seen some reasonable speculation that when Barrowman's talked about the fourth season, that when RTD says he knows where and how the fourth season begins, this is what he's talking about.) If it doesn't fit, so what? It doesn't fit. It's a variation on a theme. It's not that Doctor Who plays fast and loose with its continuity, though it does. It's that Doctor Who absolutely revels in being as wide-open as it is. The seventh Doctor can become a god and die in The Infinity Doctors. There can be three different Doctors that follow McGann. The Infinity Doctors can be absolutely, literally true, even though it fits absolutely nowhere. The Doctor can be half-human and be completely Time Lord. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds.

Sorry. Soapbox.

Suffice it to say, I think the development of this series is going to be fascinating, if only to see fandom have a meltdown. :)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Torchwood would be an easier sell to an American network, because it's something familiar.

*Too* familiar, considering the number of alien/supernatural shoot-em-ups we've got going on right now. Let's see... in addition to reruns of Buffy, Angel, and X-Files, there's Fringe, Supernatural, Warehouse 13, Sanctuary (or has that been canceled?), True Blood...

I'm thinking that we've hit max saturation on the whole genre.

If it goes to series, I'll watch it until FOX pulls the plug.

I don't know, personally. On one hand, I'm totally over RTD's throw-it-at-the-screen form of storytelling. On the other, our censors won't let him snuff little kids on screen. (And on the third hand - we are talking aliens here - I'm hearing rumors that it may be set in DC. The idea of an anti-Government nut with no grasp of the American mindset setting his show in our capitol is so damned funny that I may watch for the point-and-laugh value.)

the rampant fear about how (and if!) this will fit into the Doctor Who universe

I'm not even going to think about that until (if) they film. Because so far, there is still no proof of an actual deal here.

[wiliqueen.livejournal.com]

Sanctuary is about as secure as anything ever is on SyFy, and just had an apocalyptically cliffhangery season finale. And it is already the North American TW in a lot of ways -- steampunky trappings, shadowy organization with multiple locations, immortal leader, and all. (Bit less collateral damage, but sometimes only a bit.)

Even discounting SPN and TB as straight-up urban fantasy with no SF overtones, you've got that, W13, and Fringe to contend with.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Considering RTD's announcement that people should watch Supernatural and his (over)use of demons and prophecies, I wouldn't be surprised that *if* there is a pitch and *if* it is successful - I'm still highly dubious on both points - it will be as an urban fantasy.

[stoplookingup.livejournal.com]

On the other, our censors won't let him snuff little kids on screen

They won't? Since when? What they won't let him do is show people screwing in a bathroom a la Day One.

But I don't think what they will or won't show on American TV is a major problem. The problems are that, on American TV, nothing about Torchwood is original, it gets no boost as a spin-off, and the premise is weak. Other than that, it's a shoo-in.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

They won't? Since when?

Onscreen? I'm trying to think of a show where a child was slowly killed in front of an American audience. Not threatened, not found after death, not rescued from certain death, actually killed in front of the audience's eyes, and in a manner that took more than a nanosecond's shooting. (Or, in the case of a recent remake of Turn of the Screw, a highly-suggestive *crack* noise.)

The problems are that, on American TV, nothing about Torchwood is original, it gets no boost as a spin-off, and the premise is weak.

Yeah, there are those little drawbacks...

[boji.livejournal.com]

Read the small print in the HR article - currently Fox may comission a pilot based on RTD's script which may, if commissioned as a pilot star JB (and Eve Myles) or may not.

All this says to me right now is that RTD and friends followed the money (moving to the US) because the BBC has none left in the kitty, and that they have a good publicist/journalist friends to place stories in the trades right before they go to a Fox pitch meeting.

How many good shows NEVER get past a pilot episode?

[neadods.livejournal.com]

currently Fox may comission a pilot based on RTD's script which may, if commissioned as a pilot star JB (and Eve Myles) or may not.

Which only points out what I've been thinking all along - that this is much sound and fury signifying nothing. Torchwood S4 remains the vaporware it's been all along, despite the noise that it's coming back any minute now, bigger, stronger, faster.

How many good shows NEVER get past a pilot episode?

Quite a lot, and some don't even make it to the pilot episode.

In Torchwood's case, it's got a hugely uphill climb. Even if RTD wants to remake it entirely from scratch, he's going to have to differentiate it from all of the other supernatural/alien mystery shoot-em-ups with which our networks are littered. And he's going to have to do so without some of what he considers to be edgy plot points - murdering kids onscreen will NOT play in Peoria!

[boji.livejournal.com]

Torchwood S4 remains the vaporware it's been all along, despite the noise that it's coming back any minute now, bigger, stronger, faster.
It's a soniced-up, televisual eyegasm - or so it hopes.

And he's going to have to do so without some of what he considers to be edgy plot points - murdering kids onscreen will NOT play in Peoria!
And undoubtedly kissing the bf won't play well either.

What no one has noticed is that this story broke on the Guardian Media page at the same time as another which reports A tiger aspect managing director leaving the UK/BBC for Warner Bros International. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/jan/19/andrew-zein-leaving-tiger-aspect) Tiger Aspect (http://www.tigeraspect.co.uk/?page_id=6) being a company that - together with Kudos the Beeb commissions a great deal of high profile programming from.

I think the money is really really tightnon-existant at the moment. At Brits think the US have money - a year ago maybe studios did. Now? I'm not so sure about that either.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

It's a soniced-up, televisual eyegasm - or so it hopes.

So no change there. :D

undoubtedly kissing the bf won't play well either.

I think that's going to depend on when/where it's aired. Some cable outpost may get away with it. Otherwise, yeah, it's going to be like homosexuality on Will and Grace - more innuendo and flirting than actual anything. And lines about poodles will be *right* out!

Tiger Aspect I don't know anything about, so I bow to your knowledge there.

Now? I'm not so sure about that either.

Hard to say. Some entertainment is doing well, as it did in the last great depression. But not all entertainment is doing well, and money *still* isn't flowing. I don't think that the execs anywhere are going to be willing to put a lot of $ into anything that they don't think will be a huge hit right out of the gate. They haven't got much left to gamble with.

[ladyfox7oaks.livejournal.com]

(Snerk!) Well, when you put it *THAT* way... BWAHAHAHAHAAAA!

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

...and he's going to hang the show off of an actor that nobody outside of the fandom has heard of because he built his reputation in British theater and TV, not America.

American theatre too. Not that being a successful American musical theater actor gains much more traction.

/takes off Barrowmanian hat

[neadods.livejournal.com]

True. But IIRC, he hasn't acted on our stages for quite some time.

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

I think six years. Though before the La Cage this fall I think that was around the last time he did non-pantomime theater in the UK was around that time too.

[fyrdrakken]

:Sigh: You know, if it could just be like the American TW script that sam_storyteller came up with, I'd be thrilled.

As it is, it'll mostly be an exercise in schadenfreude, waiting for RTD to find out that in LA he isn't the television god he thinks he is.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Everyone's raving about that series. I've just friended the journal; want to read up as soon as I find time.

waiting for RTD to find out that in LA he isn't the television god he thinks he is.

I've been thinking *that* ever since he moved. On the other hand, if there was a role for someone to crank out generic summer blockbusters, he'd be a shoo-in. No need for characterization or plot, as time has proven - just lots of explosions and emotional manipulation.

[fyrdrakken]

I have the urge to reread it, but I've got a serious backlog of fic I've never even read once, so. But I have to love it just for casting David Tennant in the Jack Harkness role and then bringing in John Barrowman to play the mysterious Doctor when he finally shows up.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Really? *moves it significantly up the to-read list*

[fyrdrakken]

Indeed, yes. (Giles icon chosen for the preceding comment because the show's author is "played" by Anthony Stewart Head.)

[stlscape.livejournal.com]

waiting for RTD to find out that in LA he isn't the television god he thinks he is...if there was a role for someone to crank out generic summer blockbusters...No need for characterization or plot, as time has proven - just lots of explosions and emotional manipulation.

He really should try writing for SyFy's "original movies." Definitely a shoo-in for that.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

*snort!* You're not wrong.

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

Which story is this of copperbadge's over there? I keep forgetting about that LJ, so have friend it to keep up. This is the same writer that penned the story about the LOL-cat alien dropping in on the Hub, or am I thinking of someone else?

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Apparently it's a series called Second City Torchwood. I haven't started reading yet.

[fyrdrakken]

Yes, Second City Torchwood and the sequel, Edgar van Scyoc Presents Doctor Who. (I may be misremembering the name on that latter one.) And yes, same author as the LOLcat story.

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for the info! :)

[starmalachite.livejournal.com]

Think Rusty may have found out the grass in LA isn't as green as he thought & regrets hopping off a relative gravy train?

[boji.livejournal.com]

Think Rusty may have found out the grass in LA isn't as green as he thought & regrets hopping off a relative gravy train?

Rumours tell of him being asked to get off the beeb's gravy train, not that I have any way of knowing if that is true.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I heard something that hinted of that too, but I have no idea if it's truth or gossip or misinterpretation. As he created the BBC's current tentpole, I can't imagine why he would have been asked.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

A train that has left the station with a new set of conductors - Moffat's got Who, and the BBC has formally announced the search for a new showrunner for SJA.

That only leaves Torchwood unaccounted for. I'm *still* not wildly convinced that "showing a script to Fox" means "Fox is remotely interested" much less "Fox will pick it up."

[bloodredroses1.livejournal.com]

Oh but that tid-bit about SJA just made me do the happy dance! Hee! Take that Rusty!!! Of course if the TW remake rumor is true they'd need to do that anyway.

I haven't read his book (and I'm not sure he'd admit it even if it's so) but I suspect that he just might have a)become too difficult to work with or b)wanted to take things in directions the Top Brass weren't interested in.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.... nobody who's actually worked with the man has breathed a word short of "he's a brilliant god" that I've heard, but some of his interviews have had a certain... resentment against anyone who *doesn't* call him a brilliant god.

I wonder if he became too expensive. Who under him was so laden with CGI and special effects it has to have been a huge line item in the BBC budget.

[bloodredroses1.livejournal.com]

Yes oh yes on the SFX expense thing. That's one of the things I was thinking of under the umbrella of "difficult to work with". By that I mean he'll have a vision that he's very set on getting on-screen & the fact that it just might be a wee bit expensive to do isn't the at the forefront of his mind, only getting his vision out.

I know he knows how to cut corners & back off of things sometimes because of his various commentary tracks on the DW & TW DVDs But he's also been giving the impression that he getting more intractable the more successful he's become.

Then again this could very easily be nothing more than my bitterness at what he did to turn TW from a funny, quirky little show into Series 3's ball of gloom, doom & misery.

And yeah he's kinda been giving off the attitude of 'Recognize my greatness OR ELSE!!!' for awhile now. He just makes me want to scream "GOOD IDEAS, NO FOLLOW THROUGH!" at him until one of our heads explode.

Morgan

[neadods.livejournal.com]

By that I mean he'll have a vision that he's very set on getting on-screen & the fact that it just might be a wee bit expensive to do isn't the at the forefront of his mind, only getting his vision out.

*thinks of Moffat saying he kicked and screamed for the very elaborate and expensive shot of the Doctor jumping a horse through a mirror* They may not be saving any money there.

this could very easily be nothing more than my bitterness at what he did to turn TW from a funny, quirky little show into Series 3's ball of gloom, doom & misery.

Right with ya there. And it started out so promisingly...

re: Riiiiight: My $.02 on the Torchwood in America thing

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

That's an excellent summary of all the issues. I've seen this post linked to, as well.

Re: Riiiiight: My $.02 on the Torchwood in America thing

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

I've seen this post linked to, as well.

I'm almost afraid to ask where.

But really - when you look at it, the whole notion gets as preposterous as... an RTD finale, actually. I'll believe that he's trying to pitch something, and that it may even be Torchwoodite... but actual Torchwood?

Re: Riiiiight: My $.02 on the Torchwood in America thing

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

It could work in the US, but it wouldn't be the TW that we know and love/hate (at least that's my relationship with it).

It was linked on the Orac yahoogroup mailing list. I'm not any where near Texas, where the club is based, but about a decade ago, they were more of a Blake's 7 group and I think that they put on a few B7 cons. Now they are just general SF-oriented. I stayed on the list because it's made up of intelligent mature adults, something that is always in short supply, esp. in fandom. ;)

Re: Riiiiight: My $.02 on the Torchwood in America thing

[neadods.livejournal.com]

it's made up of intelligent mature adults, something that is always in short supply

Intelligent mature people are to be cultivated wherever found!

Re: Riiiiight: My $.02 on the Torchwood in America thing

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

Right! Of late, though, I find myself beset with some immature people in RL, who are fans and are intelligent, but have no wisdom, common sense, or manners. I'm really tired of educating those who lack social graces. There's always at least one in every group, but I've done this so much over the years that it just gets old.