Laws and Consequences

[neadods]

This is, very tangentially, not about me at all. It's about a bunch of my flisters being upset at each other and something that happened that I only heard about fifth-hand and don't know all the details. But a very significant detail appears to be that someone had to physically move someone else in order to leave an area.

So now I'm going to talk about a personal experience about physically moving someone.

A few weeks ago, one of the clinic protesters broke trespass laws and the bubble laws and ran into the private parking lot to get to someone walking into the clinic.

It is our job to protect the people going into the clinic. If they wish to go down to the public sidewalk to talk to the protesters or take flyers, that's their business and we won't stop them. But if they want to go in with the minimum of fuss, that's what we're there for. Not to mention when someone who has been yelling "Burn in hell! You'll burn in hell!" for weeks bolts towards us, we get pretty damned worried about ourselves.

Long story short, a group of escorts grabbed the protester gently but firmly and returned her to the public sidewalk. No one was hurt, not so much as a bruise or scratch.

But we had laid hands on her. As I rapidly found out, by law, regardless of what she was doing at the time, regardless of her trespass, the fact that we had touched her meant she could file for assault, possibly even assault and battery, and it took a fair amount of talking by the cop to talk her out of pressing charges.

Everyone had grounds to countersue. Had the cases come to trial, they would probably have been perfunctorily dismissed. BUT IF THEY WEREN'T - well, there aren't a lot of companies that will hire someone with an assault and battery record regardless of the circumstances. That's a simple and pretty universal fact.

Let me rephrase: by laying hands on someone, no matter how lightly or gently, no matter if it was on someone who was breaking the law, livelihoods were put on the line. It's a real burr under my saddle to realize that my only legal recourse in similar situations is to not even stand my ground, but to literally abandon the clients, run away, and hide without making any physical contact, so that there can be no question -- but I've got a job I really like and I intend to keep it and my career, thanks.

As this issue rips through my flist (and no, I'm not linking) there are posts about personal responsibility and community policing and social conditioning and victim blaming and the meaning of friendship, but I haven't seen a post about the possible legal consequences of touching someone else for *any reason.* So this is that post.

Comments

[fabricdragon.livejournal.com]

first of all, i am sadly aware of this law problem from an incident that happened to a friend.

he is male, slightly built, and working in a mall at the time. his boss is slightly heavier than he is... two women came into the store, started trashing the place, yelling threats, and grabbing product. the manager called mall security.
the women grabbed the phone out of his hands, and beat him up... when my friend tried to intervene, he was also beaten. the manager was hospitalized.
the women charged both men with assault.

if there hadnt been prior incidents, a call in to security, and a video in play......... well it would have been a lot worse for the guys. as it was both lost their jobs.

there are assumtions UNDERR LAW and assumptions in culture. they differ, but can impact each other.

under *law* the person who initiates physical contact is at fault, unless there are clear cut extenuating circumstances. period. (some jurisdictions recognize "fighting words" , some dont)

under culture? wow.... there's a tangle. in some areas the guy is always the aggressor, in some its white/black, in some its religion... or abortion... or status..... but the cultural assumptions make a BIG difference in how this plays out in court.

in short it sucks

incidentally, anyone yelling "you'll burn in hell" would worry me too........*especially* if they ran toward me.

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

The extenuating circumstances in this instance might be that someone was physically keeping someone else from leaving an area. Of course, this is said without my knowing any of the actual details, but the phrase "had to physically move someone else in order to leave an area" makes me think it's applicable.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

someone was physically keeping someone else from leaving an area

That is, in my whisper-down-the-alley version, the sticking point. At that moment, I don't care if it's a drunk naked woman (apparently the case) or a fully dressed one yelling "Don't kill your baby!" or a guy in any state saying "Hey, baby, don't go away mad, can't you take a joke?" or whatever.

That's the legal definition of kidnapping, although a reasonable person probably wouldn't take that to court any more than they'd take being touched to court.

But these days, if someone stood in front of me and prevented my leaving somewhere, I would be a lot more hesitant to lay hands on them.

I would not hesitate to complain loud and long to whatever management and security is supposed to be keeping the peace in the area, and I would use the words "technical kidnapping."

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

I am so glad you said the word "kidnapping," because I was certain I'd be laughed at if I did. Yes, physically preventing someone from leaving a place is kidnapping, and yes, it's more technical than actual - unless it's like a locked room or a moving car (even less technical at that point).

[neadods.livejournal.com]

All kinds of things aren't what people think they are. It's not the sex party that was the problem, it was the preventing people to leave. At that moment, I don't give a damn who was doing it for what reason and why everyone was there in the first place. It's illegal and I'd give con security an earful for that alone, even if it was just some jerk keeping me in (or out of) the video room.

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

A sex party? Ew. In the video room?? Eeww.

Someone actually insisting others stay during a sex party?
Worse than "ew".

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Someone actually insisting others stay during a sex party?

From what I understand - and everything I'm getting is fifth-hand - that's *exactly* what happened. Someone at a con in a fandom I'm not part of was gathering people for a "party" in the room, a couple of people came, saw what kind of party it was and tried to leave, and someone physically blocked the door. The people pushed past and complained to con security, the con blacklisted the people running the party, and the people running the party have started going public with their discontent.

Cue much discussion of rape culture and victim blaming and personal rights and sexual freedom -- because it dealt with a sex party, people have been discussing the sexual issue.

For me, the sticking point isn't the sex, it's the preventing them from leaving the room. I don't care what room - you block access/egress, you're committing a crime and you're putting people who have to push past in more danger (of the blocker hurting them or in the blocker suing them).

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry they lost their jobs for doing the right thing *and* being harmed! But it also makes my point - the obvious course of action has surprising pitfalls.

incidentally, anyone yelling "you'll burn in hell" would worry me too........*especially* if they ran toward me.

Hard not to be worried no matter what they're yelling, actually, unless it's "THERE'S A BUS ABOUT TO HIT YOU!"

[deire.livejournal.com]

I'd have to check, but...wouldn't you be able to stand in front of them? Fine line, I know, and you should not have to play basketball guard, but at least you wouldn't be the one making first contact.

[deire.livejournal.com]

Oops. Didn't read far enough.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

There's a comment elsewhere on the thread - the first line of defense when this happened was just standing there to be a body block. By the time the cop showed up, the escorts were swearing that the escort had just stood there passively blocking, while the protesters were equally swearing that they had seen the escort reach out and shove the protester down.

[webqatch.livejournal.com]

A lot of companies have non-intervention policies, most especially (believe it or not) security companies. If you get yourself personally/physically involved, you're done/out/fired. No questions asked, no answers listened to.

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

Sounds like a lawsuit-rich environment. :-)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Don't even start me on zero-tolerance policies. IMO, they're worse than most of what they're trying to prevent. Like, say, self-defense.

[webqatch.livejournal.com]

Way back when in the dawn of time, I delivered pizzas... as did (and still do) hundreds of other testosterone laden young men. Company Policy was that if you ever got held up, weapon present or not / in he store or on the street, you were to comply with the criminal's demands. Store money, personal money, company car, or personal car... hand it over, period.

Made a lot of sense to me... still does.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

That does make a lot of sense - but then, that's often life-or-death. To fire someone for coming to the rescue of another employee who's being beaten, not so much.

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

Doesn't have to be hands, either--poking someone with an umbrella or nudging them with a cane, for instance, is also battery as the object is considered an extension of your own hand reach. So, yeah.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Exactly. And at the moment of blocking, I don't personally CARE what the rest of the situation is or who's doing the blocking. I care about getting out of a situation I want to leave without putting myself or my career in jeopardy.

But TBH, I wouldn't think twice about just pushing past, and I would have argued that the reasonable person should push past right up to that incident a few weeks ago. That was a real game-changer.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

It's a real burr under my saddle to realize that my only legal recourse in similar situations is to not even stand my ground, but to literally abandon the clients, run away, and hide without making any physical contact, so that there can be no question

You have another option -- to stand between your client and the attacker, making no threatening moves yourself, and make THEM be the one who initiates physical contact. (Works better if 2 or 3 of you form a human wall.) Then you call the police and press charges. This law cuts both ways.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

You have another option -- to stand between your client and the attacker, making no threatening moves yourself

Not really. Someone else on the line did exactly that; planted herself with hands in pockets and let Eeyore bounce off her. Eeyore is small; she fell and picked herself back up to continue.

But by the time the cop showed up, everyone in the parking lot was telling him that the escort was just standing there doing a passive block and everyone on the sidewalk was swearing that she'd been pushed, they saw it clear as day, that escort reached out and deliberately shoved her down.

[starcat-jewel.livejournal.com]

Which is why a couple of people should be assigned to be ready to take video on a moment's notice, or better yet have a security camera mounted in the area. This is just like dealing with workplace harassment; documentation is key.

[dameruth.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's a very real consideration/worry. TBH, if what I've heard of the supposed f-list situation is true, I probably would have resorted to a bit of "laying of hands" myself in the press of the moment . . . though pulling out a cell phone and proposing loudly to call 911 might have been a better way to go.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I would have probably started screaming. I've got lungs on me, and "I WANT TO GET OUT LET ME OUT" is not technically a threat to anyone else.

[dameruth.livejournal.com]

Heh. Good one.

The whole topic reminds me of a story about a friend of mine. We were volunteering at a RenFaire, and he happened to be assigned to watch a gate in the temporary perimeter fence (the event was in a city park) to make sure nobody tried to sneak in without paying.

He happened to be have a boar spear with him because it looked snazzy with his outfit, and provided a walking stick/something to lean on for the duration of his shift.

Some late teen/early twenties Beavis'n'Butthead types walked up to the gate and were "huh-huh"ing at his garb and trying to provoke him, which didn't work (this was a very even-tempered guy). Finally one said, "Hey, do you know how to use that spear?"

"Yeah, I do," my friend said, which was the truth.

"So what're you gonna do if I come through this fence?" the kid asked, reaching for the fastener in the gate.

My friend pulled his cell phone out of his belt pouch and held it up. "I'm gonna call the cops and have them arrest your ass for trespassing," he said cheerfully.

The kids left in a hurry, without another word. XD

[neadods.livejournal.com]

*amused snort* Well done!

Teenagers full of themselves are getting more annoying every year. *shakes my cane*

Oh, you betcha.

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

Right after I was chewing out the little skank who had
just hit my daughter outside of her school, some totally
uninvolved kid swaggers (in a most exaggerated way) up
to me, demanding to know "why I'm up in [his] girl's face
& all".

Luckily, I was too worked up to be nonplussed, and I
simply turned on him, and he started running.

So maybe they aren't too bad to manage :-)

Re: Oh, you betcha.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There was a little shit who came by one day at the clinic and wanted to know how much we escorts cost to hire and what would we do, then wandered down to the protesters to mess with their heads for a while. And all the time his girlfriend was all "oh, he's so cool, he always messes with people, it's so funny."

He's not cool, funny, or deep, you little twit!

[acciochocolate.livejournal.com]

It's too bad and too sad when people can't even protect themselves and others from those who would do them harm.

I've heard of criminals sueing and winning cases against their victims that they robbed or hurt in some way.

Is the world going to hell? Not really. My mother believed that it was already there. I'm not sure that she wasn't right. My father used to say that laws protect criminals better than they protected their victims. Again, I'm not sure he wasn't correct.

Victim blaming is just not something that I can ever condone. The "well, they had it coming to them" is an attitude that needs to be adjusted.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I'm trying to stay Switzerland in all this; like a lot of people, I'm reacting to what I've heard and not what I witnessed first hand.

But I thought that perhaps a voice saying "this isn't as easy and clearcut as it seems and here is a similar situation" may... well, be of use.

Completly unrelated

[whimmydiddle.livejournal.com]

Found you through someone else's journal. This is Constantia. Are you the Nea I met through B&B fandom? If so, I'd like to friend you & be friended. LJ is a great way to keep up with folks. Whaddya say?

Re: Completly unrelated

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

I say it's a small world, and oftentimes, a pleasant one.
Oh, you were asking neadods! Never mind....

Re: Completly unrelated

[whimmydiddle.livejournal.com]

Oh, do I know you too? I've seen you in other folks' journals, but don't know who you are in meetspace.

...hmm, you are not likely to come back here and see that. I should post ghix inquiry to your journal!

Re: Completly unrelated

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

I thought you did, since I'm pretty sure you friended me, too...
I'm Susan - we've met a various mutual friends' houses (Dave
& Diane, for one egregious example).

Re: Completly unrelated

[whimmydiddle.livejournal.com]

Oh, YOU! Nope, haven't friended either of you yet, but I will next time I'm managing my friends list, now that I've found/identified you both.

Re: Completly unrelated

[flaviarassen.livejournal.com]

"Oh, YOU!"

yeah, that's the usual reaction...

:-)

Re: Completly unrelated

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Yup! Hi! Feel free - but be warned, I'm high volume with variable signal-to-noise.

[reynardo.livejournal.com]

Greetings!

I've come to you through silmaril, who rocks and is gorgeous. Therefore, by association, so are you.

And I am following your "thin orange line" posts. I've done a little supporting myself (http://reynardo.livejournal.com/350716.html), but not to your level.

Hang in there. And thank you.

BTW, what you say about Friending I agree with completely. I don't expect you to friend me back unless you really want to :-)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Hello and welcome!