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[personal profile] neadods
I'm beginning to think that some of my sickness is starvation - the worse I feel, the less I eat. Will be steaming up a big bowl of non-nutritional whiteness tonight because even at death's door I can eat chicken breast and buttered rice.

The Dark is Rising - Comparison of book to movie IOW, "Chris Eccleston is the only possible reason to see this, ever."

Thanks to the fabulous [livejournal.com profile] tchwrtr, a list of restaurants around the Maryland Renaissance Festival Google map and spreadsheet with URLs. (Tchwrtr? I'm going to have to give you the info for that Jaspers on 450, aren't I? If you go back 450-301, there's a Jaspers, which will theoretically bring to your car, although I've always had to go in and sweat at them. Also, I am vastly amused by your "type" for Melting Pot.)

Me, I'm planning on swinging by Whole Paycheck and picking up something from the hot bar for Monday's bento. I won't be at faire all day, 1) because I will presumably still feel like the bottom of a birdcage, 2) it's going to be 90+ damn degrees, and 3) I want to come home early enough to see the cheap show of "Becoming Jane" at the Greenbelt. I'm only going because it's opening weekend, I can see much of what I want to see while sitting quietly at the Globe all day, and I want to buy another skirt from Bullseye. Last year I picked up a part-polyester black skirt, and if a woman can't get stupendous mileage out of an non-wrinkling, A-line, ankle-length black skirt, she's not even trying. I want another one, in another nice neutral color so that this one isn't doing sole duty at faire/at the office/at the theater/sclepping at home/etc.

Am still trying to get my sluggish brain to wrap around a top-post I want to make about Ninth vs Tenth Doctors. It seems that Ten is usually seen as "Rose's Doctor," I think because David and Billie make a cuter couple. But it was Nine who fixated on Rose. She was the first one he asked into the TARDIS after the war - he even made a point about saying how he traveled on his own now... a point he broke to ask her, twice, to join him. (If she'd said no again, I could imagine that he'd be hounding her every few minutes until she said yes!) During the rest of Nine's run, no other companion was asked aboard except by Rose. Mickey's turned down invite? Rose. Adam? Rose, specifically brought on by the Doctor because "he's your boyfriend." Jack? Rose again, asking what his final message meant.

Lynda might have broken the pattern; Nine was definately giving her the pre-invite sniff-around, but she died.

Ten, on the other hand, has all but installed a revolving door, and brought on companions even when Rose was specifically telling him "NO!" Rose, again. Mickey, over Rose's objections. Donna. Martha. That's four companions before the middle of his second season and he wasn't through yet, asking Jack along (repeatedly) even after he made a huge effort to run away from him.

He fell in love with Reinette and Joan, and invited them both along, both times dumping the companion who was faithfully sticking by him. ETA to clarify - no, he was not replacing Rose or Martha at this point... but he was willing to let Rose and Mickey be stuck on the spaceship with the robots while he took the leisurely slow route back to them. The very leisurely slow route. And as for Joan - it's the ultimate in the Doctor's emotional neediness that he's willing to bring her along because the part of him that was John still cares for her but without realizing what it would do to her to be ripped from her time to careen through space with the man who only vaguely resembles her lost love and with a woman who she has every prejudice (as a black and as a servant) against - prejudices that *he* was aiding and abetting only hours previously.

He offered to give up racketing through time and space and go domestic for the Master.

That's not mentioning Sarah Jane, who he went completely incoherent over, and put immediately back into "my companion" mode, giving her the sonic screwdriver to work with (then giving her K-9 to keep) and listening as she lectured him.

Nine admitted he was needy, and focused on only one person. Ten, aside from a casual line about wanting a hand to hold, is avoiding thinking about his loneliness but is throwing just about every warm body he finds in to try to fill the gaping hole. How bad he's going to get now that he's lost his people AGAIN is a little scary.

And furthermore, the really freaky/needy part of this is how careless he is with his companions these days. Oh, he keeps them physically safe, he always has, but he's using them to try to plug his needs with very little regard to theirs.

Sarah Jane had to demand the goodbye she'd been craving for 30 years. Ordered him to say it while he tried to squirm out of it.

Rose is strung along; even while he told her they wouldn't be together forever he couched it in such terms ("You can spend the rest of your life with me") as to read that he's going to make an exception for her, then he drops it completely. She is tossed into an alternate universe without a by-your-leave by the Doctor; when she comes back but is about to drop into hell itself he does nothing more than call after her. Dimly remembering from Sarah Jane that closure might be necessary, he again jerks Rose around, showing up months later, blowing off her declaration of love, and piffling around until it is too late for him to either reciprocate or tell her what I think she really needed to hear - the order to have a good life. Nine thought she would need to hear that. Ten didn't think of her.

He behaves so wildly around Donna that she - hardly an example of maturity and insight - can't help but notice and comment that he needs someone keeping a firm hand on his leash.

Martha gets highly mixed signals from the get-go; he wants her along but "for just one trip." He kisses and flirts and says it's nothing. He implies that she doesn't measure up to previous companions. He stands silent as she tells him that she felt second-best - but he relies on her to save his life, often, and save her world. As much as I cringe at Martha's emotional blort all over him, I can accept it as her recognizing her own needs and *making* him give her the closure that she needed - the woman who was the sounding post for everyone in her family finally getting someone to stand silently and listen to her. Like Sarah Jane, she knew what she had to have and forced him to give it to her... because he sure as hell wasn't going to oblige!

Jack - Jack needed answers, the Doctor knew he needed answers, and the Doctor's response was to leave skidmarks running away and then to call Jack "Wrong." That's all the wrong he's done all the other companions combined and adding another suitcase full of bad. It's also the starkest example of how the Doctor is putting his own needs over those of the companions, no matter how badly that messes over his companions.

The only one who really got well out of Ten's deal so far is Mickey. He didn't expect anything from the Doctor, and that's pretty much what he got. In large amounts. Although the theme of the show has always been that to travel with the Doctor is to be made better, the only way Mickey could get forward was to leave the TARDIS and its occupants a universe behind.

There's an essay there, but I haven't figured out what the theme is. Aside from "Nine was emo, but Ten is Seriously Messed UP and taking it out on his companions!"

Date: 2007-08-24 05:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] svilleficrecs.livejournal.com
I am SO PSYCHED for how S4 casting spoiler is going to deal with Ten.

Date: 2007-08-24 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
If "bite me alien boy!" doesn't become canon, I'm going to be heartbroken.

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Date: 2007-08-24 05:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] chelseagirl.livejournal.com
I've always thought of Nine as Rose's Doctor, perhaps because I liked Rose an awful lot during the time they spent together, but started to find Ten and Rose a bit, well, annoying at times.

Interesting thoughts.

Date: 2007-08-24 06:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
Ten and Rose tended to make me want to smack their heads together. Even when I liked the episodes.

Date: 2007-08-24 05:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tchwrtr.livejournal.com
I'll suss out Jasper's no worry there. It's not happening before this weekend, though.

Thanks for mentioning it! I had forgotten about it. This year's version includes more places on the way home for people, instead of just those local to Annapolis area. Jasper's fits right in.

Date: 2007-08-24 06:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
Yeah, my chances of hanging around after for dinner are practically nil, while grabbing something NOT on a stick on the way home is usually quite tempting!

Date: 2007-08-24 05:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amilyn.livejournal.com
Well said. ::loves you::

Date: 2007-08-24 05:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kradical.livejournal.com
Mickey's turned down invite? Rose.

This is false. At the end of "World War 3," Nine invited Mickey onto the TARDIS. He declined.

Date: 2007-08-24 06:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
I have to go back now and see if this is before or after Mickey approached the Doctor and said that he wanted to find a not-emasculating way of turning down the invite.

Although arguably either way, Mickey only came to the Doctor's attention because of...

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Date: 2007-08-24 05:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] travels-in-time.livejournal.com
I agree so much with all of this. People who think Rose and Ten were "cute" together aren't paying attention IMHO--they're scary and co-dependent together. Nine was messed up but still able to put other people first, for the most part. Ten couldn't care less about other people.

Jack - Jack needed answers, the Doctor knew he needed answers, and the Doctor's response was to leave skidmarks running away and then to call Jack "Wrong." That's all the wrong he's done all the other companions combined and adding another suitcase full of bad.

SO.MUCH.YES.

*ahem* Sorry, you hit my Jack-buttons there. :)

Date: 2007-08-26 02:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notfromvenus.livejournal.com
Yeah. I saw scary & codependent from pretty early on, myself - but I've had a friendship like that. It's not a healthy place to be, and I think eventually Rose will realize that and be glad she's not with the Doctor anymore.

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Date: 2007-08-24 05:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kradical.livejournal.com
He fell in love with Reinette and Joan, and invited them both along, both times dumping the companion who was faithfully sticking by him.

And I don't buy this, either. I saw nothing in either "The Girl in the Fireplace" or "Family of Blood" that indicated that he was asking Reinette or Joan on board in place of Rose (and Mickey, in the former case), but in addition to them.

Date: 2007-08-24 06:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
I don't mean that he's replacing them - may go back and rewrite that to explain better (and fix a typo or two) - but that he is still making the invite at the expense of the current traveling companion(s). Rose & Mickey are stranded on the ship at the mercy of the robots while the Doctor is off with Reinette, and (unlike his attitude on the Impossible Planet) the Doctor seems quite content to take the slow route with Reinette and worry about Mickey & Rose later.

The Doctor was definately inviting Joan on as a traveling companion with Martha, which is even more tone-deaf on his part - he's not only offering to rip Joan out of her time so that she can go into danger with a man who only slightly resembles the one she fell in love with; he's asking her to set aside all the prejudices of her time for Martha... prejudices he was aiding and abetting only hours before.

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Date: 2007-08-24 05:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kradical.livejournal.com
She is tossed into an alternate universe without a by-your-leave by the Doctor

And technically, it was alt-Pete who tossed her into the alternate universe....

Sorry to nit-pick piecemeal like this. I don't disagree with your overall points, but some of the details aren't quite right. Nine did invite Mickey into the TARDIS. In fact, I found Ten's treatment of Mickey to be a huge step backward and bad writing on the part of Davies et al -- in "World War 3," Mickey had earned the Doctor's respect, and the Doctor treated him as an equal in "Boom Town" (it was Rose who treated him like shit in that episode, and even Rose herself admitted it in the end). But Ten reverted back to the pre-"World War 3" treatment of him as Mickey-the-Idiot.

Date: 2007-08-24 06:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amilyn.livejournal.com
re: Pete and the Doctor...it was Pete who grabbed her back as she was tumbling into the Void, but it was the Doctor who, with meaninful looks at Pete, slipped the button over her head from behind her back to send her there before he tried to close the rift. I think that was the bit Nea was talking about.

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Date: 2007-08-24 06:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
I found Ten's treatment of Mickey to be a huge step backward

It was, and was one of the foundations of my growing creep that Ten is a creep. Ten, starting with Harriet Jones but soon moving on to Mickey, is a lot more nasty and judgemental than Nine ever was.

As for the invite - like I said, I need to go back now and check the timing; I remember Nine sort of inviting Mickey along, and I also remember Mickey asking the Doctor to help him *not* be invited along, and I don't remember which way around it went.

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Date: 2007-08-24 05:50 pm (UTC)
ext_7885: Photo of Bitch,please Scarlet O'Hara (DW - Ten - Fire)
From: [identity profile] scarlettgirl.livejournal.com
I agree with this so much it isn't even funny. All during the emotional trainwreck of S2 I kept saying *this* Doctor was darker, and got laughed at soundly for the effort. I just shake my head at the sliver of cute, puppy- dog characterization that so much of fandom latches onto while ignoring how twisted the entire package really is. I think it would be a brilliant essay.

Although the theme of the show has always been that to travel with the Doctor is to be made better

I'm starting to rethink this. I think the message is if you travel with The Doctor your shit gets really messed up.

Date: 2007-08-24 06:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] amilyn.livejournal.com
I thought it was a GIVEN that Ten was much darker. Nine is morose and all PTSD-ing, but Ten...I mean..."No second chances. I'm that kind of man." and "I'm so old now. I used to have so much mercy." And, just for extra, the end of "Family of Blood"... MUCH darker.

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Date: 2007-08-24 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
I think the message is if you travel with The Doctor your shit gets really messed up

I don't know. Martha's doing well for herself and so's Jack, even if he's been emo about it. Even Sarah Jane has done well enough - she's been around the world (witness the tchotckies in her house) and has done well enough to be able to afford said house and travels.

I'd like to think that eventually Rose will wash her face and get on with it too, and do fantastically.

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Date: 2007-08-24 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] --kali--.livejournal.com
I agree with so much of that!

Date: 2007-08-24 06:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
I'm curious about the bits you don't agree with. :>

Date: 2007-08-24 07:02 pm (UTC)
ext_939: Sheep wearing an eyepatch (Martha Smile)
From: [identity profile] spiralsheep.livejournal.com
::admires your shiny brain::

Date: 2007-08-24 07:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
Now if my shiny brain would just stop hurting...

Date: 2007-08-24 07:26 pm (UTC)
fyrdrakken: (Donna)
From: [personal profile] fyrdrakken
Appetite is funny that way. I had to sit in the stairwell with my head between my knees for a few minutes on my way out to get my lunch because I read something ill-advised, and yet I managed to to finish everything just fine once I got back.

And I should have refrained from clicking on the movie/book comparison -- basically all I needed to know was that is extremely likely to be another of those occasions where I really very much need to not have read the book before I go see it if I want to enjoy the movie at all. And I haven't read the book, but I'm very much looking forward to sitting through a fantasy film with Eccleston playing the bad guy and Ian McShane as a good one, so I'm sure I'll enjoy it all the more for going in blind.

Ren faire skirts are great for multipurposing -- especially if you luck out like I did with a set of skirts from the Deva catalog, that look perfect for faire and have pockets. Used to wear them to school and then work all the time until I got kind of bored with them.

Absolutely right on Nine being the one with the Rose fixation and Ten being a huge alien slutboi tease. But right now the meta portion of my brain is still fixated on this thought I just had (given that I've been rolling with the assumption that the biggest problems with Rose's exit and the entirety of Martha's character arc came from Rusty not managing to have Piper and Barrowman at the same time to do his planned end to the Time War story and so just slapping the latter part of Rose's character arc on a new girl, it just occurred to me today to wonder just how much rewriting would be involved to have AoG/DD not have happened and do the exact same s3 with Rose instead of Martha -- and I have the nasty suspicion it wouldn't be much at all)... So, I'll try to backburner that and read your Nine/Ten thing.

Date: 2007-08-25 01:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tiggerallyn.livejournal.com
I've been rolling with the assumption that the biggest problems with Rose's exit and the entirety of Martha's character arc came from Rusty not managing to have Piper and Barrowman at the same time to do his planned end to the Time War story and so just slapping the latter part of Rose's character arc on a new girl, it just occurred to me today to wonder just how much rewriting would be involved to have AoG/DD not have happened and do the exact same s3 with Rose instead of Martha -- and I have the nasty suspicion it wouldn't be much at all.

I'm of the same view, that a lot of Martha's character design was so that she'd be close enough to Rose for the story beats RTD had planned to work. But I say this, and people think I'm daft. :)

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Date: 2007-08-25 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alizarin-nyc.livejournal.com
Well said! That IS an essay right there. Most interesting assessment. I've been feeling bad about Martha and you've hit on why.

Date: 2007-08-25 07:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neadods.livejournal.com
I still think there's an undertone of racism in Martha's storyline, particularly when matched with Mickey's, but there's certainly something about the shoddy way Ten treats all his companions!

Date: 2007-08-26 01:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nina-ds.livejournal.com
Here via [livejournal.com profile] who_daily. It's interesting, I've just been involved with a very long, wide-ranging, spirited discussion with someone else over many Who topics, including Ten's characterization and my feeling that he doesn't really engage with characters the way Nine did. Ten has been going through companions like water, and hurting them, whereas Nine could have built a harem and left his companions inspired, uplifted, better. There are many other differences between the characters, but that one really sticks with me. Makes it difficult for me to care for Ten, because he whinges on about being "lonely" and then refuses to take the risk of getting involved (this really hit me in School Reunion), whereas Nine was all raw nerves and exposed wounds, but kept barging in, trying to make connections and inspire people to help themselves.

I see Rose as Nine's and Nine as Rose's. Nine and Rose were sweet and hot, full of banter and intimacy; Ten and Rose's "cuteness" kind of revolted me, to be honest, because it never felt genuine. I know lots and lots of people thought it was adorable, but it looked to me like tapdancing on the volcano, ignoring the chasm at their feet. Some of it, admittedly, is my feeling that Tennant fails to fill up the epic quality they're trying to draw for him, whether it's darkness or light. I can't seem to even enjoy watching him being horrible, the way I can, say, Baltar on BSG.

Other than having John Barrowman back on the show, they really didn't do anything with Jack except expose a shallow prejudice in Ten (it seems silly for Ten, but it seems impossible for Nine). I had hoped that Nine had made Jack into the sort of man who could knock some sense into Ten...but that didn't happen. It way didn't happen.

I'm sorry if this is scattered and/or abrupt, I'm coming down with a humidity headache, but I wanted to jot these thoughts down! I hope you're feeling better.

Date: 2007-08-26 02:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] notfromvenus.livejournal.com
Here from who_daily....

I think you've got a lot of good points there. Whatever some people may say, Ten's been pretty dark and selfish from the get-go - it's just that in S2, you've got to look beyond the surface giggling-with-Rose level. In S3, more of his true colors were exposed.

His bit right before/during the Master's death scene, about keeping him on the TARDIS forever and ever.... while the shipper in me loved it, it's IMO one of the most selfish things we've ever seen the Doctor do on the show. "Ooh, I'll forgive you for doing all kinds of terrible horrible things again and again (after doing nasty things to others for far less), and kick out my companions (since they sure as hell wouldn't stay around with the Master after what he'd done to them) and keep you around with the potential of you escaping and wreacking more havoc on the universe, just because I'm lonely."

And you know, this is why he's become one of my favorite Doctors. He's more than a cosmic do-gooder, he's got his own agenda, and it's a very flawed one.

he needs someone keeping a firm hand on his leash

Should I mention the images that conjured up? ;)


Oh, and yay Maryland renfest! Haven't been in a couple years, but it was always pretty cool. Have fun! :)

Date: 2007-08-26 04:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zabbers.livejournal.com
And you know, this is why he's become one of my favorite Doctors. He's more than a cosmic do-gooder, he's got his own agenda, and it's a very flawed one.

This is a good point. I haven't quite decided yet how I feel about him (I suppose I'd better decide soon), but having him be like this is certainly interesting. I'd always been pretty conflicted about the Doctor, swinging wildly from anger at the way he behaves to--well, it's the protagonist, or one of them, I'm supposed to like him--wanting to fan him. The cute thing does make a difference, to my shame.

(Here through [livejournal.com profile] who_daily, by the way, and really appreciating the meta.)

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