A TW vs. DW morality question

[neadods]

T3, Who-Daily: lj user="neadods"> a href="http://neadods.livejournal.com/705917.html">has a TW vs. DW moral question (Spoilers for Journey's End)

A DW vs TW morality question: What is more of an assault - the Doctor wiping Donna's memories over her protests or Jack's/Torchwood's reliance on retcon?

[Poll #1218803]

Me, I think Jack is the one who is committing assault, plain and simple. Because he doesn't want to answer questions, or because of "the rules" which he cites but never explains, he whips out the retcon all the time, drugging people against their knowledge and then (in the case of Gwen) even sending in his team to erase computer records. We know retcon is considered a punishment, cleanup operation, and "retirement program" all in one - and note that the only other person who casually wiped people's memories was the villain from Dalek in Who S1.

Although Donna was protesting and definitely didn't want to lose her memories, the Doctor did not act for his own convenience or pleasure. He left Donna alone until such time as it became clear that her health/life was in question - at which point, her brains were becoming so scrambled that she was no longer capable of giving informed consent anyway.

By traveling with the Doctor, Donna had put her life in his hands. With her life in danger, he rescued her again.

And the more I talk about this online, the more confident I become that Donna can regain her awesome without either memories or Doctor. It was all *her* between Runaway Bride and Partners in Crime - all that growth, all that planning, all that accomplishment. That came from within *her,* while she lived *on Earth,* without the Doctor's input at all.

So, no... even if Donna is never un-fobwatched (because that is how I really see it), I don't feel that she is better off dead, that she is left without any hope of regaining her personal growth, or even that the Doctor did her wrong.

x-posted without poll to marriedonmars

And yet another fic rec from the tsunami coming out of the finale reactions: ionlylurkhere's utterly perfect The Moment Has Been Prepared For. Now this ought to be canon!

Comments

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I agree Jack's worse...

But what worries me about Donna is that meeting Ten was the spur to her developing - she wouldn't have done all that growth and planning if she'd married Lance (assuming that had wedding had gone ahead) - it's very clear IN TRB that it was her encounter with the Doctor that made her take an interest in the world at large. Now she's forgotten that, what spur does she have?

I'm not saying she's not intelligent, because she clearly is, but she lacks motivation to develop, esp with her mother beating her down...

[neadods.livejournal.com]

One hopes that her mother is going to have learned a lesson after getting a talking to by the Oncoming Storm.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I am hoping that, yes... But I'm not 100% certain she will!

[neadods.livejournal.com]

It's in our hands, until the specials at least.

I must say, I'm looking forward to the Donna books. And I really must check DWM, which I've been getting and not reading to see if they're doing Donna cartoons yet.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I'm looking forward to them too!

And yes, they are doing comic strips with Donna in the DWM. I can now safely read my newest one - I held off on it for the last 10 days just to ensure I didn't get spoilered!

[missbaxter.livejournal.com]

"what worries me about Donna is that meeting Ten was the spur to her developing"

Was it? I got the opposite impression from Turn Left - o.k., I know it's an alternate universe to a certain extent, but Donna is still very much the Donna of TRB in that, and she ultimately steps up to the plate, and notices the events of the world around her even before she runs into Rose (i.e. recognizing the Racnoss web for what it is and following it to see what's happened while everyone else is running in the opposite direction.) Admittedly she does find a Doctor figure in Rose, but as far as potential goes, it's all there - she was certainly determined enough to wear down Lance in TRB when that was what she wanted. Hopefully we'll see her again, doing her darndest to figure out what she wants and going after it with everything she's got! And yeah, hope that Sylvia is a bit more sensitive (though I did like her instant defense of Donna in the sit-down with the Doctor; that was one of the few times you really felt that she does love Donna, it just always comes out as nagging and negativity...) Um, I''ll shut up now :)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Donna is still very much the Donna of TRB in that, and she ultimately steps up to the plate, and notices the events of the world around her even before she runs into Rose (i.e. recognizing the Racnoss web for what it is and following it to see what's happened while everyone else is running in the opposite direction.)

Yes, exactly. The spark is there, it just needs fed, and I think Wilf specifically has a goal to feed it.

[tempestsarekind.livejournal.com]

My problem with the ending of the episode is not that I don't believe Donna will never grow without the Doctor; I just think this is one of those times when it shouldn't be left to the viewer to hope that the appropriate future happens for her. I wrote about this a little in my journal, but it would have been easy to hint at Donna's future in some way, only that wouldn't have been Tragic Enough or something. We've been seeing her realize her potential all season--why not leave her on an up note, showing us that she'll do it all over again? I do have to ask why that's left to us to do, and not something included in the episode itself.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I do have to ask why that's left to us to do, and not something included in the episode itself.

Because Rusty has a thing about thinking nobody in their right mind would consider leaving the Doctor. (Sorry about the spam, but I just posted a huge post on how 8 out of 10 companions were dumped for one reason or another.)

[tempestsarekind.livejournal.com]

No worries--new posts are good!

It's just frustrating--because even if she wouldn't *leave* the Doctor, that's no reason Rusty can't show her beginning again. Except that he likes sad endings, even when they're not wholly justified?

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Except, I think that he sees this as a sad ending, and cannot conceive that maybe half his audience wants to see her getting the chance to begin again.

Or, like much of his treatment of Martha, he seems to think that implication is just as good as saying.

[tempestsarekind.livejournal.com]

That makes *me* sad, that he might see this ending as sad! It's not happy, certainly, but if humans really are as extraordinary as the Doctor believes they are, then there ought to be some hope for Donna mixed in with the forcible separation.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

The *Doctor* believes they are. Not too sure that *Rusty* believes they are.

[missbaxter.livejournal.com]

"The *Doctor* believes they are. Not too sure that *Rusty* believes they are."

Does anyone else find the show's tension between the idea of 'ordinary' humans and 'extraordinary' humans (i.e. companions) really, really annoying? The Doctor said in Season 3 that all humans are extraordinary, but there's a definite hierarchy in the way he picks his companions -i.e. not one of the 'ordinary' humans in 'Midnight' were shown to be potential companion material. Any thoughts on what the required qualities to turn an otherwise ordinary human into an extraordinary companion are?

[neadods.livejournal.com]

Does anyone else find the show's tension between the idea of 'ordinary' humans and 'extraordinary' humans (i.e. companions) really, really annoying?

IMMENSELY! At least every now and then Nine could sell the idea that he liked people as people, but Ten never does.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

Yes, she was different in Turn Left, compared to The Runaway Bride - but given the reactions we saw from her in that brief period after she's mind-wiped and before Ten leaves, I got the distinct impression that she's a TRB version of Donna, not a Turn Left version.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

It's such a short flash that I think a diagnosis could go either way.

[persiflage-1.livejournal.com]

I freely admit I'm inclined to be pessimistic about it, because the mind-wipe annoyed me so much *even though I predicted it*!

[bentleywg.livejournal.com]

What is more of an assault - the Doctor wiping Donna's memories over her protests

If that's assault, then amputating a leg badly damaged in an accident -- a leg that its owner would really really like to keep and desperately wishes someone could save -- is assault.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I really like that analogy!

[msp-hacker.livejournal.com]

I still think the Doctor was more wrong to mindwipe Donna than Jack's recton usage.

When Recton is used, it's to wipe out one moment of realization of "OMG there are aliens living in Cardiff!" and doesn't fundamentally alter the person other than they might continue not believing in aliens. ( Other than Max, but since Suzie was programing him I don't think it counts. )

What the Doctor did was erase months of experiences, and more importantly, the inspiration to change her life. Before "The Runaway Bride" Donna was trying to change herself, and failing because she was just trying to change her life in the ways everyone expected of her. After "The Runaway Bride" she realized she wanted to change her life completely. Not only did the Doctor wipe away her TARDIS adventures but the whole reason for why she did what she did inbetween "The Runaway Bride" and "Partners in Crime."

And I don't think they whip out Recon all the time. They Retcon Gwen, possibly the guests in "Small Worlds", (in online Cannon) the people who where cutting up the space whale in "Meat" and everyone at Gwen and Rhys' wedding. The only one that comes close to what the Doctor did to Donna was the last, and pretty much everyone thought Gwen was mad for saying it was an alien, anyway.

But the reason why I think it was worse? It's horrible when someone assaults you, it's so much worse when it's someone you trust.

Bah. I still blame Rusty for creating the problem more than the Doctor trying to fix it.

Especially since it just takes Martha/Sarah-Jane/Jack to look her up and invite her to dinner to make her brain to start to "explode." again. He may have given The Talk to Syliva and Wilf, but I don't think he said peep to the rest of his Companions.

[shaggydogstail.livejournal.com]

I don't see it as an either/or question - both are forms of assault. TW uses retcon in a variety of situations, including many in which I'm sure they'd argue they were doing it for the recipient's own good. Not that any of them, like Donna, get a choice in the matter.

I saw no evidence that Donna was incapable of giving informed consent. Quite the opposite, in fact, since the very reason she was so upset was because she knew exactly what was happening to her. Even if she were incapacitated, it would still have been RTD's choice to write her that way. However you look at it, Donna was textually denied the ability to make her own choices and that - not the question of whether it would be better if she lived or died - was what was wrong with JE.

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

IAWTC ↑

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I wanna know how to code that arrow!

My reply to the original comment is just below this, and boils down to along with RTD's racial issues, he's got consent issues, because the *only* New Who companion to leave on her own steam and without duress is Sarah Jane. Rose was allowed to fall into the void (after the Doctor had snuck up on her with the universe jumper), Jack was left behind, Martha was driven out, and Donna was mindwiped.

At least Moffat doesn't seem to think that there's something defective about people who *don't* want to be joined at the hip to the Doctor 24/7, and hopefully won't be coming up with plots to force them away one way or another.

[spiralsheep.livejournal.com]

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[neadods.livejournal.com]

I don't get plain text messages. *makes note, because I really need a "points upwards and nods" icon anyway.*

Brace yourself for more spam; this is inspiring Yet Another Top Post.

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I did make one observation about Rose & Donna: if RTD stopped getting into the habit of having humans go "I'll travel with you forever", then he wouldn't have to go through such convoluted and depressing b.s. to retire them from the tardis when the actor's moving on.

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

update - I see we both hit on that observation at the same time (i hadn't read the other newer post yet). :)

[neadods.livejournal.com]

As you've seen, I've come up with a tl;dr about that... :>

[neadods.livejournal.com]

I saw no evidence that Donna was incapable of giving informed consent.

The repeated words, the warning that cross-species crosses are unstable - that all read to me as if she was starting to break down, and since the problem was with her head, it means that she was not thinking clearly enough to be able to give informed consent.

I quite like bentleywg's analogy above.

Stepping from characters into meta, yes, she was denied her own agency. Sarah Jane is the only one who hasn't been denied the ability to make her own choices - Jack was abandoned, Rose was let fall, Donna had her memory taken away, and Martha was essentially driven out, especially as she pointed out in her speech that she was leaving because she felt unvalued.

At least SM will bring in a different set of subtextural issues than RTD.

[acroyear70.livejournal.com]

Well (having just watched the goodbye again, followed by time crash which is now obligatory), I'd disagree that Martha was "driven out" - but the "rebound" factor was certainly there as was the "stationary friends" thing.

but then again, i'm a guy and that might have something to do with it.

Re: Donna

[taiamu.livejournal.com]

Oh, I much prefer the mindwipe than Dead!Donna. And the mindwipe didn't come out of the blue for me, as it seems to have done for so many people, mostly because a friend and I had discussed this possibility.

It was quite clear that Donna's neurons were frying. If the Doctor hadn't intervened, it was quite clear (imho) she would have ended up comatose or insane. He was trying to save her mind and personality as much as her life.

Am I sorry for what Donna's lost? Yeah, but it's mostly because she's lost all the /wonderful/ things she saw with the Doctor.

But that Donna's still in there. And she has the capability to be awesome, if her Mom gets off her back.

And I'm not entirely certain that unlocking those memories would lead to immediate brain fry. Donna's problem was that she got /everything/ all at once.

All this to say that I really don't think a mindwipe is the end of the road for Donna Noble. She's too strong for that. ;)

[lefaym.livejournal.com]

Definitely Jack. One thing I like about Torchwood though is that the audience is constantly reminded that the use of retcon is morally ambiguous at best and downright wrong at worst-- far better than in something like Harry Potter, where the wizards wipe Muggle memories all the time, and no one even questions the ethics of doing so.

To me, the moment in Journey's End where Davros and Caan point out that the Doctor turns his humans into willing weapons, that sums up my feelings about Torchwood-- Torchwood is the dark shadow cast by the Doctor's light.

[lt-kitty.livejournal.com]

In TW, retcon is a morally ambiguous at best solution undertaken by morally ambiguous characters with a cobbled together collection of current technology and stuff they barely understand attempting to act imperfectly for the good of earth.

As with many things done at TW, its not presented as "good" but as "best we can manage under the circumstances."

In DW, though, we had a character with profound telepathic abilities and a ship that's both telepathic itself and carries a vast assortment of weird technology. We've seen the Doctor lock away his own mind and rewrite his biology, and telepathically remove what is essentially the mind of an alien more advanced than himself from a companion's mind so it wouldn't kill her, and took away only 30 minutes of her memories in the process.

I don't believe that removing every single memory of the last 18 months was the only alternative that could keep Donna alive or safe, nor the best the Doctor could come up with. So, the notion that what TW does is worse doesn't fly. We know the Doctor has better alternatives than they do.

I also don't think you can discount the idea that the Doctor *didn't* act for the sake of convenience. There have been two other companions who lost all their memories of the Doctor and were deposited right back where they were picked up. What the Time Lords did to Jamie and Zoe was part of a punishment on the Doctor for his interference in the timeline.

After Davros' pronouncement that he brings out the worst in his companions, after watching the worst of himself to save the universe... perhaps the Doctor just believed it was in her best interest never to have met him at all, no matter what she said to the contrary.

[neadods.livejournal.com]

perhaps the Doctor just believed it was in her best interest never to have met him at all, no matter what she said to the contrary.

I think I like this theory, dark as it is!